دنیٰ ۔ دنیا ۔ دنیوي ۔ دنیاوي dunyaa - adjective

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marrish

Senior Member
اُردو Urdu
Hi,

We've been running in circles there on the Indo-Iranian Languages forum where we've been discussing dunyawii, dunyaawii and dunyaa2ii from the Urdu and Persian point of view but needless to say, the discussion should have had started here in the first place.

Would you please explain on the matter of 1) dunyaa, and if it is acceptable to write دُنيا ?
2) how does it look like when it comes to the adjectives?
Can you comment please on the sources I used in the post below?
That's surprising enough to say it must be a misunderstanding. دُنْيَوِيّ dunyawiy is Arabic, دنيوي - قاموس WordReference.com عربي - إنجليزي

But dunyaawii appears to be Arabic as well!
دُنِياوِيٌّ :
ن . دُنْيَوِيٌّ .
from here
I don't know what ن stands for.
 
  • Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    Would you please explain on the matter of 1) dunyaa, and if it is acceptable to write دُنيا ?
    I don't completely understand this question. You spelled دُنْيَا correctly.

    2) how does it look like when it comes to the adjectives?
    There are three options: دُنْيَوِيٌّ، دُنْيَاوِيٌّ، دُنْيِيٌّ. These are all correct. The most common one used is دنيوي. The other two are rarely ever used.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    Matat said:
    marrish said:
    Would you please explain on the matter of 1) dunyaa, and if it is acceptable to write دُنيا ?
    I don't completely understand this question. You spelled دُنْيَا correctly.
    If I may elaborate, here are relevant quotes from Urdu (Arabic, Persian): Adjective endings (وی ، ئی، ی) and Urdu: Dunyaawii vs dunyaa'ii that might explain marrish's question:
    Qureshpor said:
    dunyaa is actually دنیی where the last "ye" is alif-i-maqsuurah. In Arabic orthograpy to avoid the presence of two "ye"s, the terminal ye is written as an alif. Both دنیوی and دنیاوی exist.
    marrish said:
    To help a bit I'll roughly translate the entries from Faruqi's rozmarrah: (for those who don't read Urdu)

    دنیا عربی میں الف مقصورہ سے "دنییٰ" تھا۔ اردو فارسی میں سیدھے الف ہی سے صحیح ہے۔

    دنیا dunyaa. In Arabic it was دنییٰ with a maqsuura alif. In Urdu and Persian it's correct just with a straight alif.

    دنیاوی قاعدے کے لحاظ سے یہ لفظ "دنیوی" ہونا چاہئے تھا یعنی دنییٰ/دنیوی۔ لیکن اردو والوں نے "دنیا" میں سیدھا الف فرض کر کے یاے نسبتی لگائی اور الف مقصورہ فرض کرکے یاے نسبتی کے پہلے واؤ لگا دیا! اسے لفظ سازی میں تخلیقی خلط مبحث ہی کہا جائے گا۔ اور لطف یہ ہے کہ قاعدے کے مطابق جو صحیح لفظ بنایا "دنیوی"، وہ بھی اردو میں انھیں معنی میں رائج ہے۔

    دنیاوی As per the rules, this word should have been دنییٰ/دنیوی, but Urdu speakers assumed a straight alif in دنیا and attached yaa-e-nisbati (-ii adjectival) and assuming an alif maqsuurah they added a vaav before this yaa-e-nisbatii! We can but call it a disputable jumble in creative word-formation, but the nice thing about it that the word which is correct according to the rules, دنیوی dunyavii, is also current in Urdu with the same meanings.
    Therefore, marrish's questions seems to be: should it be written دنیٰ (as he has included in the current title of this thread as well) or is دنیا also acceptable (the second spelling in the current title of this thread)?

    One of the questions that arises from the IIL Forum thread where this topic has been discussed is whether دنیائی would be an acceptable adjectival form/derivation in light of Arabic grammar (apart from Persian grammar). Relevant quote from ـاوي ، ـوي (nisba):
    Ghabi said:
    Alfaaz said:
    Thanks for the detailed answer Ghabi. Is و the only weak radical?
    Hello. Both w and y are considered weak radicals. To be more precise, there are three kinds of hamza one can find at the end of a word, hence three possibilities for its nisba formation:

    - hamza "transformed" from a weak radical, in which case when a nisba is formed either the weak radical is "restored" or the hamza just stays put, thus there exist nisba "doublets" like سماوي / سمائي; ...
    Since the root of dunyaa is دنو, could the explanation provided above apply and allow the existence دنیائی of as well?
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    Therefore, marrish's questions seems to be: should it be written دنیٰ (as he has included in the current title of this thread as well) or is دنیا also acceptable (the second spelling in the current title of this thread)?
    دُنًى is the plural of دنيا in Arabic. So they are both correct, it's just that one is singular and the other is plural.
    One of the questions that arises from the ILL Forum thread where this topic has been discussed is whether دنیائی would be an acceptable adjectival form/derivation in light of Arabic grammar (apart from Persian grammar). Since the root of dunyaa is دنو, could the explanation provided above apply and allow the existence دنیائی of as well?
    No, دنيائي would not be acceptable. The discussion you are referring to would only apply to extended nouns (i.e. nouns which end with ـاء), not shortened nouns (i.e. nouns which end with ـا or ى).
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Thanks to Matat and Alfaaz's pointing out to our previous discussions on Persian and Urdu, some of my other queries have been answered.
    The main query about the adjectives is almost solved.

    دنيائي wasn't included in the opening post because it is obviously Persian (spelled دنیایی).

    So I briefly resume what has been said so far (from my point of learning process):

    1) there is دنیا dunyaa in Arabic. It means 'world'. Right? Then, what is this word's derivation?

    2) What is
    دنیٰ and دنییٰ ?

    @Matat in particular:
    3) How is دُنًى transliterated in Roman?
    4) Regarding dunyaawii, your vocalization was my hunch too, otherwise in the link I quoted in the first post it's duniyaawii, isn't it?

    Thank you so much.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    1) there is دنیا dunyaa in Arabic. It means 'world'. Right? Then, what is this word's derivation?
    We have دُنْيَوِيّ worldly, earthly, mundane, secular, دُنيوية worldiness, secularism.
    2) What is
    دنیٰ and دنییٰ ?
    I'm not sure exist, at least in Modern Standard Arabic. But maybe someone else can have a different experience/opinion.
    @Matat in particular:
    3) How is دُنًى transliterated in Roman?
    4) Regarding dunyaawii, your vocalization was my hunch too, otherwise in the link I quoted in the first post it's duniyaawii, isn't it?
    I'm not Matat, but I think I can answer these questions (and welcome his corrections if there are any):
    - دُنًى is dunan (both vowels are short).
    - Yes, AlMaany website give the vowelization as duniyaawii, but I believe it's a typo.
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    1) there is دنیا dunyaa in Arabic. It means 'world'. Right? Then, what is this word's derivation?
    Yes, it means 'world.' Its derivation is a little tricky. Simply speaking, دنيا is the feminine form of the comparative/superlative adjective أدنى. It basically means "the closest" or "lowest". It is meant as an adjective to the word الحياة to represent the 'lowest life' (i.e. الحياة الدنيا). It was then converted to be its own noun.

    2) What is
    دنیٰ and دنییٰ ?
    Before modification, the word دنيا is actually دنيیٰ (since it's of the form فُعْلَى). However, per the spelling rules of Arabic, in a noun, you can't have an ى letter which is not a part of the root of the word come after a ي letter (with the exception of certain proper nouns). So you can't spell it دنییٰ. When this happens, the ى would get converted to a ا. So this is why you would spell it دنيا.

    Also, دنیٰ doesn't exist on its own because all nouns which are exactly three letters long must be nuunated (with the exception of certain proper nouns). So the only possibility you can have is دُنًى, and this is the plural of the word دنيا. However, دُنًى will become دنیٰ when it's definite (i.e. الدُّنَیٰ = the worlds) or when it's in idaafa (e.g. دُنَیٰ شَعْبِنَا = the worlds of our people).

    - Yes, AlMaany website give the vowelization as duniyaawii, but I believe it's a typo.
    I agree with Cherine. I think it's merely a typo.
     
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