ذلكم

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Jamal31

Banned
American English
Hello,

I wanted to ask how demonstrative words like ذَٰلِكُم would be used instead of ذَٰلِكَ or أُوْلَالِكَ. This chart linked to me by Matat lists many of the demonstrative words I'm referring to.

Essentially, I am wondering if ذَٰلِكَ means 'that' (male singular), ذَانِكَ/ذَينِكَ is the dual talking about two things (i.e. those), and أُوْلَالِكَ is the plural talking about three or more things, then when are the words ذَٰلِكُمَا and ذَٰلِكُم used and in reference to what? Are they essentially versions which are talking about humans, where ذَانِكَ/ذَينِكَ and أُوْلَالِكَ are talking about inanimate objects?

Some examples of their use in the Quran:

2:49
وَإِذ نَجَّيناكُم مِن آلِ فِرعَونَ يَسومونَكُم سوءَ العَذابِ يُذَبِّحونَ أَبناءَكُم وَيَستَحيونَ نِساءَكُم ۚ وَفي ذٰلِكُم بَلاءٌ مِن رَبِّكُم عَظيمٌ

2:54
وَإِذ قالَ موسىٰ لِقَومِهِ يا قَومِ إِنَّكُم ظَلَمتُم أَنفُسَكُم بِاتِّخاذِكُمُ العِجلَ فَتوبوا إِلىٰ بارِئِكُم فَاقتُلوا أَنفُسَكُم ذٰلِكُم خَيرٌ لَكُم عِندَ بارِئِكُم فَتابَ عَلَيكُم ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوّابُ الرَّحيمُ

12:32
قالَت فَذٰلِكُنَّ الَّذي لُمتُنَّني فيهِ ۖ وَلَقَد راوَدتُهُ عَن نَفسِهِ فَاستَعصَمَ ۖ وَلَئِن لَم يَفعَل ما آمُرُهُ لَيُسجَنَنَّ وَلَيَكونًا مِنَ الصّاغِرينَ
 
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  • analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    I think they would be used in theory when you were speaking to more than one person. The -ka on the end of dhaalika and dhaaka is, etymologically, a second-person pronoun (added to dhaa, which is the original etymological demonstrative at the root of haadhaa, dhaaka, dhaalika etc). Relatively early on in the written history of Arabic (I don't know the exact dating) - possibly even before the written history of Arabic - this -ka had begun to be reinterpreted as just part of the demonstrative pronouns and no longer agreed compulsorily. But agreement was still possible. These forms are now very archaic, though.
     

    Jamal31

    Banned
    American English
    I think they would be used in theory when you were speaking to more than one person.
    Could you please elaborate? Do you mean that when you say ذَٰلِكَ you could only be talking to one person e.g. you tell Ahmad, "that is the book" you would say "ذَٰلِكَ الكتاب"; and you would use ذَٰلِكُم when talking to three people e.g. you tell Ahmad, Rasheed and Bilal "that is the book" you would say "ذَٰلِكُم الكتاب"?
     

    analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    That's right. Though to what extent agreement was ever compulsory I don't know. You could have a look in the Qur'an and see if there are examples of dhaalika with plurals (I suspect there are).
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    I agree with everything analeeh said but I'm unsure about the following:
    Relatively early on in the written history of Arabic (I don't know the exact dating) - possibly even before the written history of Arabic - this -ka had begun to be reinterpreted as just part of the demonstrative pronouns and no longer agreed compulsorily.
    The -ka had always been used for generic cases as well as for singular masculine cases since the Islamic era at least. In Classical Arabic during the Islamic era, there was nothing grammatically incorrect about saying ذلك كتاب to a plural group. It is simply more emphatic to say ذلكم كتاب. Consider the following verse in the Quran:

    وَإِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَبَلَغْنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ أَن يَنكِحْنَ أَزْوَاجَهُنَّ إِذَا تَرَاضَوْا بَيْنَهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ذَٰلِكَ يُوعَظُ بِهِ مَن كَانَ مِنكُمْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَزْكَىٰ لَكُمْ وَأَطْهَرُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ البقرة(232) -

    Even though this is speaking to a plural group, in one part of the verse the word ذلك is used, while in the other part ذلكم is used. What you are referring to may be true some time before the Islamic era, but I personally haven't read about or researched this.

    and أُوْلَالِكَ is the plural talking about three or more things, then when are the words ذَٰلِكُمَا and ذَٰلِكُم used and in reference to what? Are they essentially versions which are talking about humans, where ذَانِكَ/ذَينِكَ and أُوْلَالِكَ are talking about inanimate objects?
    أولالك can be used to refer to non-human objects in Classical Arabic, though in MSA Fusha usually the singular feminine تلك is used for non-human objects (this is also used in Classical Arabic as well in addition to أولالك).
    ذلكم and ذلكما are used to reference a single masculine human or non-human object, but it is when you are speaking to a plural or dual group respectively. They are not the same as ذانك/ذينك. The words ذانك/ذينك are used to reference dual masculine human or non-human objects, but when speaking generically. If you were to reference a dual masculine object and are speaking to two people, you can, analogously, say ذانكما/ذينكما.

    Could you please elaborate? Do you mean that when you say ذَٰلِكَ you could only be talking to one person e.g. you tell Ahmad, "that is the book" you would say "ذَٰلِكَ الكتاب";
    Yes, but it would be better to put a pronoun in between them (called ضمير الفصل) e.g. ذلك هو الكتاب.

    and you would use ذَٰلِكُم when talking to three people e.g. you tell Ahmad, Rasheed and Bilal "that is the book" you would say "ذَٰلِكُم الكتاب"?
    Yes, you can say both ذلكم هو الكتاب and ذلك هو الكتاب. Another example is that to a single female, you can say
    ذلكَ هو الكتاب or ذلكِ هو الكتاب.
     
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    Zaid's The Limit

    New Member
    English & Urdu
    I agree with everything analeeh said but I'm unsure about the following:

    The -ka had always been used for generic cases as well as for singular masculine cases since the Islamic era at least. In Classical Arabic during the Islamic era, there was nothing grammatically incorrect about saying ذلك كتاب to a plural group. It is simply more emphatic to say ذلكم كتاب. Consider the following verse in the Quran:

    وَإِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَبَلَغْنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ أَن يَنكِحْنَ أَزْوَاجَهُنَّ إِذَا تَرَاضَوْا بَيْنَهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ذَٰلِكَ يُوعَظُ بِهِ مَن كَانَ مِنكُمْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَزْكَىٰ لَكُمْ وَأَطْهَرُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ البقرة(232) -
    Reply: I like that you used an example for both ذلك and ذالكم , if you notice the sentence where ذالك is used, it seems to be speaking to one person even though the ayah as a whole is to a group. If you notice, after ذالك, it says منكم يؤمن, not يؤمنون so it is speaking to one person. The sentence where ذالكم is used has لكم which is in sinc with ذالكم. As a student of arabic, this makes sense to me. I don't know if there are exceptions to it. I hope that helps.
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    If you notice, after ذالك, it says منكم يؤمن, not يؤمنون so it is speaking to one person.
    What is important is how many are being spoken to, not how many are being spoken about if the sentence has information about people. ذلك يوعظ به من كان منكم يؤمن بالله واليوم الآخر is clearly being spoken to more than one person. It roughly translates to "That is what is instructed upon those among all of you who believe in Allah and the Day of Judgment."
    (Additionally, the fact that it uses the singular verb يؤمن instead of the plural verb يؤمنون doesn't mean that it is only being spoken about one person. It can still be speaking about more than one person.)
     
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    Zaid's The Limit

    New Member
    English & Urdu
    I apologize for not being clearer, I don't mean to say that by pointing out يؤمن is to say ذالك is refering to one person talked about, it's still about who's being spoken to. By mentioning يؤمن, it seems to be speaking to one person by not mentioning directly as in "you believe". يوعظ is also singular.

    For example, if I'm giving advice to a person who's emotional, I may say "someone in your position....." rather "people in your position...." although they both work, the first can be more effective in some ways for one person. By looking at how many people are talked about, sometimes it tells you who's being talked to.

    منكم doesn't necessarily include all, it has من as in from you, from doesn't necessarily include all, like a man from you people (رجل منكم) still could mean one person.

    Feel free to correct me where I may be wrong. It's just something to think about.
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    For example, if I'm giving advice to a person who's emotional, I may say "someone in your position....." rather "people in your position...." although they both work, the first can be more effective in some ways for one person. By looking at how many people are talked about, sometimes it tells you who's being talked to.
    Sure, but that's not really relevant here. You're right that you may be speaking to one person when saying "someone in your position". But if I said "someone from among all of you", then I'm most likely speaking to more than one person. Is it possible that I may be speaking to only one person? Sure. But most likely not. So the question is, how would I know? You'd know by the context. In the verse, the context very clearly shows that a plural group of people is being addressed. You are looking at the third person verbs and pronouns when what you should be doing is looking at the second person verbs and pronouns, since that is what clearly shows you who is being addressed.
    وَإِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاءَ فَبَلَغْنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ أَن يَنكِحْنَ أَزْوَاجَهُنَّ إِذَا تَرَاضَوْا بَيْنَهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ذَٰلِكَ يُوعَظُ بِهِ مَن كَانَ مِنكُمْ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَٰلِكُمْ أَزْكَىٰ لَكُمْ وَأَطْهَرُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
    The entire verse from beginning to end is addressing a plural group of people.

    منكم doesn't necessarily include all, it has من as in from you, from doesn't necessarily include all, like a man from you people (رجل منكم) still could mean one person.
    Once again, it doesn't matter what it means; it matters how many it's addressing. رجل منكم is referring to one person, but it is (most likely) addressing multiple people, depending on the context. That's why you can say ذلك رجل منكم or ذلكم رجل منكم.
     
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