رأيت السائقان يتشاجران

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Ali Smith

Senior Member
Urdu - Pakistan
مرحبًا

In the sentence رأيت السائقان يتشاجران is the verb يتشاجران a حال? If so, is السائقان the ذو الحال?

Thanks!
 

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  • Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Yes I would say that يتشاجران is a jumlah haaliyyah and the sahibu-l-hâl (or ذو الحال) is السائقان ...
     
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    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Because it's مفعول به أول?

    Ibn Nacer: Maybe يتشاجران could be مفعول به ثانٍ?
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    Because it is maful bihi. The verb رأى when it means "to see " only has one maful bih
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    Even though it literally means to "see" here I think يتشاجران is still a second object (to be more specific: a verbal sentence acting as a second subject جملة فعلية في محل نصب معفول به ثان)
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    Didn't you write this a few years ago?

    رأى and أرى are the same verb (the former is second person and the latter is first person). When this verb is used to mean "see", then it takes only one object, but when used to mean "know" or "believe," then it takes two objects (that's why an opinion is called رأي). The word "see" can have both these meanings in English of course
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    I don't even remember what I wrote last night!

    I think this is a good rule of thumb, but it's not decisive. The line isn't always clear between "vision" and "knowledge". I would say that it takes one object when the focus is on vision, and it takes two objects when the focus is on the information being conveyed (other than the fact that something has been seen), i.e. رأيت السائقين vs رأيت السائقين يتشاجران.

    What else could it be? A حال is something that relates to the subject/author of a verb (فاعل) not an object describes its action. Here the subject is the first person pronoun, which يتشاجران is not describing. So it cannot be a حال.
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    I don't even remember what I wrote last night!
    :D

    The حال can describe the مفعول به and yes I would say that يتشاجران is a حال describing the two drivers
    رأيت السائقين حال كونهما يتشاجران
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    That doesn't mean that يتشاجران is a حال though. I can also say رأيت السائقين حين كونهما يتشاجران.

    Do you have a source for this parsing?
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    If, as the scholars of grammar say, رأى only has one object then it cant be anything else than a حال

    I dont think I was clear enough. I was trying to explain that the sahib al-hal can be mafoul bihi.

    صاحِب الحال هو الاسم الذِي يذكر الحال لبيان هيئته، وتكون الحال صفة له في المعنى، ولهذا الاسم مواقع إعرابيَّة عديدة في الجملة الفعليَّة أو الاسميَّة.
    فهو قَد يأتي:
    - فاعلاً، مثل: «جَاءَ زَيدٌ مَاشِياً».
    - أو نائباً عن الفاعل، مثل: «ضُرِبَ الطِّفلُ بَاكِياً».
    - أو مبتدأ.
    - أو خبراً.
    - أو مُضافاً إليهِ، مثل: «رَاقَبتُ ذَهَابَكَ مُبتَعِداً».
    - أو مجروراً بحرف جر، مثل: «مَرَرتُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ قَاعِداً».
    - أو أحد المفاعيل كالمفعول به، مثل: «أَكَلتُ الطَّعَامَ سَاخِناً».
    - أوالمفعول المطلق، مثل: «كَتَبتُ الكِتَابَةَ كَبِيرَةً».
    - أوالمفعول لأجله، مثل: «هَرَبتُ خَوفَ المَوتِ مُتَعَاظِماً».
    - أوالمفعول فيه، مثل: «خَرَجتُ العَصرَ وَهُوَ مُشمِسٌ».
    - أوالمفعول معه، مثل: «سَهَرتُ وَالقَمَرَ مُضِيئاً».
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    I guess we can all agree that my textbook got it wrong because there's no way السائقان can be مرفوع.
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    I agree that describing يتشاجران as a حال is correct and probably the more standard way, but I can also agree with describing يتشاجران as a second مفعول به and see nothing wrong with that. رأى is among أخوات ظن, also called أفعال القلوب. What that means is that it can enter upon مبتدأ+خبر sentences and make the مبتدأ and خبر accusative. That interpretation can be used here.

    I guess we can all agree that my textbook got it wrong because there's no way السائقان can be مرفوع.
    It's best to stick with السائقَيْن, but there is an argument to be made for السائقان as well (in Classical Arabic). However, I don't think I want to muddy up the waters right now and go too deep into it.
     
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    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Salut,
    Ibn Nacer: Maybe يتشاجران could be مفعول به ثانٍ?
    Abbe has already answered ... Yes here the verb رَأَى has the meaning of "to see", it therefore takes only one object ... And the meaning is also clear: the sentence يتشاجران describes the state of the two drivers (السائقان) when they were seen by "me" (the subject of رأيت).

    It should be السائقين
    Bien vu !

    That doesn't mean that يتشاجران is a حال though. I can also say رأيت السائقين حين كونهما يتشاجران.
    I find that the use of حين does not contradict the definition of haal, on the contrary it reminds me that hâl often expresses simultaneity and some translate* using a connector which expresses simultaneity as while, when, whereas...

    I think we can also rephrase the sentence using a wâw-l-haal : رأيت السائقين وهما يتشاجران

    * Example :
    A hal clause is a special kind of Arabic construction that allows you to indicate that the action (or event or state) mentioned in the hal clause is occurring at the same time as the action (or event or state) mentioned in the main clause. It can be translated many ways into English, but most often you can use the conjunctions while or when at the beginning of the English subordinate clause. The English equivalents of hal clauses also frequently begin with anactive participle (the "-ing" adjective form: the "talking" dog, the "working" man). The English sentences below would all probably be translated into Arabic using a hal clause. The word in italics signals the beginning of the hal clause:

    He arrived while carrying a book.
    He arrived carrying a book.
    He arrived with a book in his hand.
    I met Anwar Sadat while/when he was president.

    Source : http://faculty.washington.edu/tdeyoung/HalClause.pdf
    I guess we can all agree that my textbook got it wrong because there's no way السائقان can be مرفوع.
    This book is in French (I didn't know you read French), do you have the references?
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    I agree that describing يتشاجران as a حال is correct and probably the more standard way, but I can also agree with describing يتشاجران as a second مفعول به and see nothing wrong with that. رأى is among أخوات ظن, also called أفعال القلوب.
    Yes syntactically/grammatically the verb رأى can take two objects but here, if it was the case, what would be its meaning ?

    It seems to me that when the verb رأى takes two objects it has the meaning of: consider, esteem, to percieve, to think, to regard...
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    Yes grammatically the verb رأى can take two objects but here, if it was the case, what would be its meaning ?
    I don't think the meaning changes with the different interpretation of the syntax.
    It seems to me that when the verb رأى takes two objects it has the meaning of: consider, esteem, to percieve, to think, to regard...
    رأى can certainly mean all those things, but that is more dependent on the context of the sentence than the interpretation of the syntax.
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    I agree that describing يتشاجران as a حال is correct and probably the more standard way, but I can also agree with describing يتشاجران as a second مفعول به and see nothing wrong with that. رأى is among أخوات ظن, also called أفعال القلوب. What that means is that it can enter upon مبتدأ+خبر sentences and make the مبتدأ and خبر accusative. That interpretation can be used here
    Are you sure about that? I thought that رأى البصرية is not considered to be one of the أفعال القلوب
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    I don't think the meaning changes with the different interpretation of the syntax.

    رأى can certainly mean all those things, but that is more dependent on the context of the sentence than the interpretation of the syntax.
    Ah I thought the grammar analysis depended on how the sentence understood. And in principle, grammatical functions are associated with a specific meaning, right ? Otherwise why make the difference between hâl, tamyiiz, maf'uul bihi, maf'uul fihi ... These are all accusative nouns, right?

    Edit : Finally, I think I understand better what you mean: yes the meaning does not change because of the different syntactic interpretations (grammar analysis) but do you agree that the syntactic interpretation (grammatical analysis) depends on our understanding of the sentence ? (The grammar analysis is made according to the meaning of the sentence).
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    @Abbe and @Ibn Nacer, it looks like you two are correct. I was thinking of the Quranic verses like فلما رأى القمر بازغا and thought that both opinions would apply on those types of verses, then used that standard and applied it to this sentence, but it seems my original premise about these verses was wrong to begin with.
    «فلما رأى القمر» سبق اعراب مثلها وكذلك «قال هذا ربي فلما أفل قال..» «بازغا» حال منصوبة لأن رأى بصرية وليست قلبية
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    It's best to stick with السائقَيْن, but there is an argument to be made for السائقان as well (in Classical Arabic). However, I don't think I want to muddy up the waters right now and go too deep into it.
    I am very interested! Please tell me more.
     

    Abbe

    Senior Member
    Swedish
    I am very interested! Please tell me more.
    I think Matat was talking about some Arab tribes that used the dual in the same way as the الاسم المقصور i.e. that the harakat cant be seen on the alif.
    They would say: جاء الرجلان ورأيت الرجلان ومررت بالرجلان in the same way you say رأيت الفتى وجاء الفتى ومررت بالفتى
    Although this is never used in a book for beginners
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    @Abbe, I had actually not considered that, but that's a good point.

    The argument I was going to make was different; it was that you can keep both the مبتدأ+خبر as nominative when you have one of the أفعال القلوب enter on it, but that argument is invalid here for two reasons. The first reason it's invalid is what Ibn Nacer and Abbe pointed to in that رأى here is not used as a فعل قلبي since it's referring to physically seeing. The second reason it's invalid is, after looking back through my references, it turns out that what I was thinking of is when there is a لام الابتداء attached to the nominal sentence, so had the sentence been ظننت لَلسائقان يتشاجران, it must be nominative here, but without the لام, it would be accusative and you'd say ظننت السائقين يتشاجران.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    So, لام الابتداء turns the مفعول به أول and ثاني both into مبتدأ خبر? Is that why they're both مرفوع?
     

    Matat

    Senior Member
    English
    The إعراب would be {اللام لام الابتداء و{السائقان} مبتدأ مرفوع و{يتشاجران} في محل رفع خبر وجملة {للسائقان يتشاجران} سدت مسد مفعولي {ظننت. Though I can understand why introducing the لَـ would force this i3raab, I must say that I don't see why using a nominative مبتدأ+خبر combo couldn't also be an acceptable variant without the لَـ. No doubt ظننت السائقين يتشاجران would be more conventional, but I feel like the logic should make ظننت السائقان يتشاجران acceptable as well, but I could not find any source to validate this. Nevertheless, this logic would not work in your original رأيت sentence for the reason already discussed, mainly that we're not using رأيت as a فعل قلبي.
     
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