صلى الله عليه وسلم - past/perfecr tense

[Nadia_Taliba]

As salam alaikum,

I just wanted to know why when people refer to the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) and other dead people the verb used is in the past tense. E.g. صلى الله عليه وسلم


Is it just used in just fusha or other forms or Arabic also?

Shukran

 

[Mahaodeh]

Because it's a form of Duaa' (prayer), which is always said in the past tense if it's indirect (i.e., you are not talking to God directly). It does not have to be for dead people, such as أدام الله عزك وحفظه الله.

 

[Serafín33]

It seems that in general these indirect wishes tend to be in the past tense, isn't it?

عاش الملك
(Long) Live the King

بارك الله فيك
May God bless you

 

[dkarjala]

Yes, traditionally this is referred to as the optative by European scholars. Remember, the 'past' is really a 'perfect', and doesn't always refer to the past but rather a state that occurs after an action is completed, at any time whatever...think of conditional sentences, like "If you study, you will succeed" where both verbs are in the perfect/past form in Arabic.

In Classical Arabic, this form is productive but I believe the phrases like this are frozen forms and can't be used with new verbs in dialect, for example.

 

[WadiH]

In Classical Arabic, this form is productive but I believe the phrases like this are frozen forms and can't be used with new verbs in dialect, for example.

If the form you refer to includes conditional statements, then it is still productive in many dialects.

 

[dkarjala]

No, I just mean the optative of wish. I think by and large the perfect/suffix forms of wishes (jazaak Allah khayr, baarak Allah fiik) are phrases taken whole from fusHa. To my knowledge, in dialect with less common phrases the productive forms tend to be prefix-conjugation/imperfect forms - Allah yahdiik, Allah yarHamha.

Any thoughts?

 

[WadiH]

I would say that's basically true.

 

[Ali Smith]

No, I just mean the optative of wish. I think by and large the perfect/suffix forms of wishes (jazaak Allah khayr, baarak Allah fiik) are phrases taken whole from fusHa. To my knowledge, in dialect with less common phrases the productive forms tend to be prefix-conjugation/imperfect forms - Allah yahdiik, Allah yarHamha.

Any thoughts?

In colloquial Arabic only the prefix-conjugation (فعل مضارع) forms are productive, the suffix-conjugation (فعل ماضي) being used only in fossilized expressions. In classical Arabic, by contrast, both forms were productive. Thus, we have يرحمك الله and يهديكم الله in the following hadith:

عن النَّبيِّ ﷺ قَالَ: إِذَا عَطسَ أحَدُكُمْ فَلْيَقُلْ: الحَمْدُ للهِ، وَلْيَقُلْ لَهُ أخُوهُ أَوْ صَاحِبُهُ: يَرْحَمُكَ الله، فإذَا قَالَ لَهُ: يَرْحَمُكَ اللهُ، فَلْيَقُلْ: يَهْدِيكُمُ اللهُ وَيُصْلِحُ بالَكم رواه البخاري

 

[WadiH]

I was wrong in 2010. The maaDi is productive in Peninsular dialects for this purpose.

 

[𐎔𐎗𐎒 𐎛𐎓𐎂𐎇1]

How can صلى الله be a duaa? Does صلى not mean prayed? And how can its subject be God?

 

[analeeh]

Grammatically the subject has to be God. The usual explanation is that صلى has two meanings and that the meaning here is 'bless'. So the meaning is 'may God bless'.

 

[Ali Smith]

The usual explanation is that صلى has two meanings and that the meaning here is 'bless'. So the meaning is 'may God bless'.

But then why does the Qur'an say إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا? How can the addressees be expected to bless the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم)?

 

[analeeh]

Presumably the second one means 'pray'.

 

[Ali Smith]

Presumably the second one means 'pray'.

Okay, but how does one pray “upon” the Prophet Muhammad?

 

[analeeh]

صلى على means 'pray for'. You don't 'bless on' either.

 

[rarabara]

But then why does the Qur'an say إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ

i see two sentence here or a sentence divided to two parts but not sure for the truth (might need to be confirmed)
إنّ الله means indeed to Allah; و ملاءكته and his angels يصلون على نبي pray to his prophet.

this the sentence can also be expressed something as:

indeed Allah's angels prays to Allah and prays to his prophet.

if the meaning is not the first aim, then i think that this form would not be considered as "perfect" tense, because the exact (plu)perfect tense(s) is being produced via كان، يكون to my knowledge.

 

[Abbe]

فمعنى الصلاة - عند جمهور العلماء - : من الله تعالى : الرحمة ، ومن الملائكة : الاستغفار ، ومن الآدميين : الدعاء

 

[Sadda7]

Okay, but how does one pray “upon” the Prophet Muhammad?

In reality, this (الصلاة على النبي) is unclear, especially when you try to understand it from a linguistic point; all the explanations we have are - in my opinion - opinions of scholars.

 

[Abbe]

Why, what are the linguistic meanings?

 

[Sadda7]

I don't think there is a clear meaning to الصلاة when it comes to the context of الصلاة على النبي, and I've always found it vague. The source of that explanation you provided for example still mentions other opinion (وذهب آخرون...). These explanations are merely the scholars' opinions and the interpretations are probably influenced by the scholar's madhab.

 

[Abbe]

There is often different opinions about the meaning of a word in a specific context. That's why I asked you about the lingustic meaning. Ibn Mandhour mentions a hadith where the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
اللهم صَلِّ على آلِ أَبي أَوْفى
It seems that it was used not only for the Prophet at that time.
Ibn Mandour writes:
قال الأَزهري: هذه الصَّلاةُ عندي الرَّحْمة؛ ومنه قوله عز وجل: إن اللهَ وملائكته يصلُّون على النبيِّ يا أَيُّها الذين آمنُوا صَلُّوا عليه وسَلِّموا
تسليماً؛ فالصَّلاةُ من الملائكة دُعاءٌ واسْتِغْفارٌ، ومن الله رحمةٌ وبه سُمِّيَت الصلاةُ لِما فيها من الدُّعاءِ والاسْتِغْفارِ
I agree that it might be difficult to pinpoint the exact meaning but the relation between the lingustic meaning, invocation, and the meaning explained in the passage above is not far-fetched, at least not in my opinion.

 

[Sadda7]

Thank you! I'm aware of what's written in the Tafsir books and the lexicons, you have also the known Hadith of (كيف نصلي عليك؟) that may give more clarity, but what I'm talking about is connecting the meaning of صَلَّى to الرحمة in the context above, it's obvious that it's merely an attempt of intrepreting the verb in a way that makes sense in its context and eliminates uncertainty*, but it's still not an undisputed and a settled on meaning like you see for another verb as استغفر for example, and because of the existence of other interpretations like المغفرة أو الثناء أو البركة.

The website you quoted from said والصحيح خلاف ذلك (أي كون الصلاة رحمة) which is the view of ابن القيم and was followed by ابن العثيمين, the latter said in his Tafsir:

"وما معنى ﴿يُصَلُّونَ﴾؟ اشتهر عند كثير من أهل العلم أن الصلاة من الله الرحمة، ومن الملائكة الاستغفار، وعلى هذا فيفسر ﴿يُصَلُّونَ﴾ باعتباره إلى الله بمعنى الرحمة، وإلى الملائكة الاستغفار، لكن هذا التفسير خطأ"

And added in another book of his as a support for his view:

"اختلف العلماء في معنى الصلاة على النبي ﷺ، فقال بعضهم: إن الصلاة من الله: الرحمة، ومن الملائكة: الاستغفار، ومن الآدميين: الدعاء، ولكن هذا لا دليل عليه، بل إن الدليل على خلافه، لأن الله قال في القرآن: ﴿أولئك عليهم صلوات من ربهم ورحمة﴾"

*That is due to connecting the known meaning of the verb صَلَّى which is دعا to Allah.

 

[Abbe]

but what I'm talking about is connecting the meaning of صَلَّى to الرحمة in the context above, it's obvious that it's merely an attempt of intrepreting the verb in a way that makes sense in its context and eliminates uncertainty*

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. As you wrote, the problem is understanding how the linguistical meaning of دعاء can be applied and understood in relation to Allah. Obviously Allah doesn't pray to Himself, so we are left with the meaning of دعاء, i.e. to pray for something, and it seems that the scholars moved from the question, i.e. the prayer, to the answer from God. So how does Allah answer? By His rahma, praise, etc.

The claim that it's wrong to interpretate صلاة as rahma because of the verse
أولئك عليهم صلوات من ربهم ورحمة is wrong itself. It can be understood as عطف العام على الخاص whichs is common practice in Arabic and it's used to emphasize the خاص. Or it can be understand as al-Qurtubi understood it
وكرر الرحمة لما ٱختلف اللفظ تأكيداً وإشباعاً للمعنى كما قال:{ مِنَ ٱلْبَيِّنَاتِ وَٱلْهُدَىٰ } [البقرة: 159]، وقوله:{ أَمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّا لاَ نَسْمَعُ سِرَّهُمْ وَنَجْوَاهُم } [الزخرف: 80]

 

[Sadda7]

That's another possible explanation, and this is why I'm seeing this as I initially said, as mere personal opinions/views/interpretations. It isn't unequivocal.

 

[Abbe]

I agree, that you can't pinpoint the exact meaning, but all the opinions are متقاربة

 

[Sadda7]

There is more to it but this is not a religious forum. I said before that the interpretation is influenced by the scholar's madhab or specifically his theological views.

opinion of the majority is clear

The "majority" would only be relevant if you're religious or a follower of a specific theology school. The verb can be completely vague or completely clear or neither depending on the interpreter's understanding of the nature of God.

 

[Abbe]

Can you give an example of this
I said before that the interpretation is influenced by the scholar's madhab or specifically his theological views.
I don't see this as a conflict between theological views.