عند عمي مكتب كبير

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by Ibn Nacer, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    Salut,

    How do you understand this sentence: عند عمي مكتب كبير?

    1- My uncle has a large desk.
    or
    2- At my uncle there is a large desk.

    ---> If both are possible then how to avoid ambiguity ?
    Can we use the preposition al-laam with an object (لعمي مكتب كبير - My uncle has a large desk) ?

    -------------------
    Comment comprenez-vous cette phrase : عند عمي مكتب كبير ?

    1- Mon oncle a un grand bureau.
    ou
    2- Chez mon oncle il y a un grand bureau.

    ---> Si les deux sont possibles alors comment éviter l’ambiguïté ?
    Peut-on utiliser la préposition al-laam avec un objet (لعمي مكتب كبير - Mon oncle a un grand bureau) ?
    -------------------

    Merci.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  2. Hemza

    Hemza Senior Member

    Paris, France
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    Salut,

    Selon moi, cette phrase signifie "chez mon oncle, se trouve un grand bureau". Je crois que cela sous-entend qu'il possède un grand bureau mais cela peut également signifier qu'un grand bureau se trouve chez lui sans forcément lui appartenir.

    لعمي مكتب كبير lève toute ambiguïté et signifie "mon oncle a un grand bureau" mais elle peut aussi signifier dans un contexte différent, "pour mon oncle, un grand bureau" (par exemple, si le locuteur souhaite offrir à son oncle, un bureau).

    Ps: je dis ça en tant que non natif, je prie quiconque de m'excuser si je me trompe.
     
  3. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    Merci Hemza...
    Tu es le seul à avoir répondu, je ne pensais pas que ma question était si difficile...

    You're the only one who answered, I did not think my question was so difficult...

    The problem is that it is well known that the word عند can be used to express the verb "to have", or else I am wrong ?
     
  4. Hemza

    Hemza Senior Member

    Paris, France
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    Actually I think your question is a piece of cake for native Arabic speakers (which I am not ).
    عند may indicate the possession, there is no verb "to have/avoir" in Arabic as far as I know but there are several ways to express it and "عند" as well as "ل" work, yet for ل as you can see, it depends on the context.
     
  5. Omar Lemaachi New Member

    Arabic
    Hi Ibn Nacer,

    Before answering I wanted to tell you that you are already great :)

    If both are possible then how to avoid ambiguity ?

    I think it is important to have the necessary vocabulary.

    1- My uncle has a large desk. ( عمي يمتلك مكتبا كبيرا )
    2- At my uncle there is a large desk. (في منزل عمي يوجد مكتب كبير)

    Ibn Nacer you should note that to avoid ambiguity it's necessary to make a translation of the meaning of the sentence and not a translation word by word !!!

    Now the two sentences I gave you in Arabic have two different meaning :

    The first informs us that your uncle has a large desk.
    The second informs us that he has a large desk in his house without specifying whether it belongs to him or not.
     
  6. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    Arabic and English
    I disagree, in fact, I see the exact opposite.

    I would say that عند may or may not indicate ownership or possession. It can mean my uncle has a large desk, or my uncle owns a large desk, or at my uncle's there is a large desk (i.e., at his house or office), or even, in some contexts, there is a large desk by my uncle (as in: beside him).

    The laam, on the other hand, indicates possession. If you say: لعمي مكتب كبير, it indicates that he has a large desk - it is his desk. In most contexts the laam indicates ownership, in the case of the desk it may not be literally owned by him (it may be owned by the company he works in) but the ownership is understood by proxy since the company gave it to him as long as he is working there.

    With regards to ambiguity, well, this is one of the things I like about Arabic. You can be as ambiguous or clear as you want. You can, if you want, specify literally as in Omar's examples. However, I would imagine that in most cases the context makes it clear.
     
  7. Hemza

    Hemza Senior Member

    Paris, France
    French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
    This is what I said to @Ibn Nacer in French (it would have been too hard to explain it in English) so I second you :thumbsup:
     
  8. Omar Lemaachi New Member

    Arabic
    I have to be more careful when I answer in English since I am not too strong in this language
    When I said "the first informs us that your uncle has a large desk."
    I wanted to use the verb "to own" instead of "to have"
    And I think that's why you disagree

    If you notice I used in the first example the verb "إمتلك" to indicate the ownership and in the second example the verb "أوجد" to indicate only the existence of a large desk and all this just to avoid ambiguity

    You spoke of the "context" and I agree with you that it will no doubt be able to eliminate the ambiguity

    Concerning the use of "عند" were several

    First note that it is a name used for either:

    Indicate its presence in a place
    For example:
    دخلت عند صاحبي
    I entered a friend's house

    indicate the time of his presence
    For example:
    وصل عند مغيب الشمس
    He arrived at sunset

    Indicate possession (To have)
    For example:
    عندك سيارة رائعة
    لديك سيارة رائعة
    عند = لدى
    You have a great car

    Suspicion and judgment
    For example:
    هذا عندي أفضل من هذا
    To me this is better than this

    It comes in the sense of ownership and comes metaphorically
    For example:
    عنده علم
    He has knowledge
    أو
    عند خالد علم عظيم

    عند الحاجة
    When we need

    Here are some explanations taken from Almaany dictionary, I hope they will not complicate things instead of simplifying them, that's why I preferred to use other words instead of leaving "عند"And that the ambiguity remains.
     
  9. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    Arabic and English
    Sorry, I don't speak French so I missed your post.
    When I re-read your post, I realised that my confusion could be from this:
    I thought you were referring to the original post, now I realise that you may have been referring to your own examples (1 and 2). In this case, I would naturally agree with you because there is no confusion in your examples.
     
  10. Omar Lemaachi New Member

    Arabic
    :thumbsup:
     
  11. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    Salut,

    @Hemza : Merci encore.

    @Omar Lemaachi : Thank you for your helpful reply.

    I also thought of using something like في منزل/بيت عمي ... Thank you for confirmation.

    And for the first meaning I think these two sentences ("عمي يمتلك مكتبا كبيرا" and "لعمي مكتب كبير") have the same meaning, right?

    Thank you, this is useful...

    Apparently I have badly translated the sentence "Chez mon oncle il y a un grand bureau". It seems that the right translation is the one you have given : "at my uncle's there is a large desk"... I omitted "'s"...

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  12. Omar Lemaachi New Member

    Arabic
    Yes right
     
  13. Ibn Nacer Senior Member

    French - France
    @Omar Lemaachi : Thank you for confirmation.
     
  14. Omar Lemaachi New Member

    Arabic
    :thumbsup:
     

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