غُسَالة

mohammed

New Member
English, Urdu
MashaAllah nice forum and community you have here.

Hope everyone is well, inshaAllah

Now my question: I'm a little unsure whether the word غسالة is Arabic or is best understood in Farsi [Persian] ( as the book 'Tahrir al-Wasila' was I believe originally in Farsi, and the Arabic translation may have carried the word across from Farsi ). In Farsi the translation of غسالة is 'washing or purging' ( so it was mentioned on online Farsi translator for ﻩﻠﺎﺴﻏ )

Anyway I hope, and would appreciate very much if, someone knowledgeable will translate the following:

In Tahrir al-Wasila ( cant post url unfortunately as 30 posts needed ) it is mentioned under sub-heading Tahara (Purification) Ruling Number 24


مسألة 24 :
الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا

Please can someone translate fully the above into English language

Is it something on lines of:

"Water that has been used for removing filth, referred to/known as غسالة (i.e. purging), is impure unconditionally"

And specifically what is the correct meaning/translation of المسمى بالغسالة

Is it ..

a) known as washing-machine/tub

or is it referring to

b) known as Ghasala (meaning the act of removing impurities is known as Ghasala [i.e. washing/purging])

Another question is it possible for بالغسالة in this ruling/context to mean:

c) Washing Machine

.. or for it to mean washing machine it must be written

d) like غسالة آلية (Arabic)

Thankyou in advance for any replies
 
  • elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Hello Mohammed, and welcome to the forums! :)

    Let me try to answer your questions:

    mohammed said:
    In Tahrir al-Wasila ( cant post url unfortunately as 30 posts needed )
    Is this the URL? In the future (until you've submitted 30 posts) feel free to PM me any URL's you'd like to post and I can post them for you.

    it is mentioned under sub-heading Tahara (Purification) Ruling Number 24


    مسألة 24 :
    الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا

    Please can someone translate fully the above into English language

    Is it something on lines of:

    "Water that has been used for removing filth, referred to/known as غسالة (i.e. purging), is impure unconditionally"
    I would suggest
    "The water used to remove the filth that according to (the standards of) purification is called complete impurity."

    And specifically what is the correct meaning/translation of المسمى بالغسالة

    Is it ..
    It is referring to الخبث.
    المسمى = which is called
    بالغسالة = according to (the standards of) purification


    I inserted "the standards of" because that seems to be the meaning I gather from the context. Nevertheless, I cannot be completely sure so if you provide additional contextual information that might help.

    I think the confusion resulted because you translated as "as" when in fact the meaning is "in" - that is, "in purification," or - more idiomatically - "according to (the standards of) purification."

    Finally, that all answers your initial question: غسالة is indeed an Arabic word.

    Hope I was of help.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Thankyou Elroy for the quick reply and warm welcome


    elroy said:
    Is this the URL?



    Yes it is


    "The water used to remove the filth that according to (the standards of) purification is called complete impurity."


    It is referring to الخبث.
    المسمى = which is called
    بالغسالة = according to (the standards of) purification



    Confusion I have with غسالة meaning as you have suggested is that غسالة آلية I believe means 'washing machine' or we could say 'purging [act of removing uncleanliness, or purifying] machine' ----- so if غسالة is by itself then it will mean as mentioned with غسالة آلية but without the 'machine' suffix

    With the and ال prefix will it then mean 'in' 'the' غسالة [act of - removing uncleanliness, purifying] ------ is called نجس مطلقا complete impurity [ i.e. is that meaning impure in all cases/definitely impure ? ]


    Actually I think what I'm saying is what you have already mentioned, but I have substituted your translation of


    according to (the standards of)


    with: according to (the act of) purging/purification


    I guess in essence it means the same.


    So am I correct that in general the ruling implies the following:

    "The water used to remove filth, in act of purifying, is impure"

    Finally, that all answers your initial question: غسالة is indeed an Arabic word.


    Thankyou for clarifying. However is it still possible that it means washing machine ? or as mentioned earlier would that have to be written as غسالة آلية


    I cannot be completely sure so if you provide additional contextual information that might help.


    Unfortunately what I mentioned earlier regarding the book being written in Farsi and the same/similar word غسالة translating to 'washing or purging' was the only guide to what it may mean. I suppose one could search the link for other occurances of the word or the rulings surrounding it to know the context but to be honest my Arabic is very weak and basic and not adequate to come to a definite conclusion without some guidance, the reason why I posed the question here.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    mohammed said:
    Confusion I have with غسالة meaning as you have suggested is that غسالة آلية I believe means 'washing machine' or we could say 'purging [act of removing uncleanliness, or purifying] machine' ----- so if غسالة is by itself then it will mean as mentioned with غسالة آلية but without the 'machine' suffix
    It can mean washing machine, but that wouldn't make sense here. Also, the vowelization would be different; if the text were vowelized you would see that. I'll show the difference by transliterating the two possible meanings of the word:

    washing machine: ghassaala
    purification/purging: ghisaala

    I hope that helps.

    Actually I think what I'm saying is what you have already mentioned, but I have substituted your translation of


    according to (the standards of)



    with: according to (the act of) purging/purification


    I guess in essence it means the same.
    Hm...not really. What I meant by "according to (the standards of) purification" was something along the lines of "according to the nomenclature/terminology/traditions of purification." Consider this sentence.

    In astronomy, a group of stars is called a constellation.

    Similarly,

    In purification, ... is called complete impurity.




    So am I correct that in general the ruling implies the following:

    "The water used to remove filth, in act of purifying, is impure"
    Hm...I'm having second thoughts now. At first I thought that المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا referred to الخبث, i.e., "the filth, which according to purification is called complete impurity." However, the phrase could theoretically refer to الماء, such that the meaning would be "the water (used to remove filth), which according to purification is called complete impurity." I'm not sure, but it would make more sense to me that the filth, and not the water, would be determined "completely impure." Again, lack of contextual background places me at a disadvantage. Having skimmed through the text, I can see that it's about ablution and purification, but that doesn't really help us determine what "complete impurity" refers to. What's even more strange about this phrase is that it's not a complete sentence, as opposed to some of the other ones on the webpage. If you wait a little, someone else with more relevant background might come along and solve the mystery for us.





    Thankyou for clarifying. However is it still possible that it means washing machine ? or as mentioned earlier would that have to be written as غسالة آلية
    Nope, as I said above.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    elroy said:
    Hm...I'm having second thoughts now. At first I thought that المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا referred to الخبث, i.e., "the filth, which according to purification is called complete impurity." However, the phrase could theoretically refer to الماء, such that the meaning would be "the water (used to remove filth), which according to purification is called complete impurity." I'm not sure, but it would make more sense to me that the filth, and not the water, would be determined "completely impure."
    Yes as far as I understand the rulings in that section are for water

    كتاب الطهارة
    فصل فى المياه‏

    .. and not specifying filth ( as filth [urine, stool, etc] in itself is filthy/impure )

    So it's not stating condition of filth because that will remain same, but the water prior to making contact and cleaning that filth was pure and now the status has changed.

    This is why I was asking if the general meaning is implying that:

    "Water used to remove filth, [known by, named, called, by act of, according to] غسالة [i.e. purging] , is completely impure"

    Dictionary entry for purging is as follows:

    purge (pûrj)

      1. To free from impurities; purify.
      2. To remove (impurities and other elements) by or as if by cleansing.
    purging
    adj : n 1: an act of removing by cleansing; ridding of sediment or other undesired elements

    It can mean washing machine, but that wouldn't make sense here. Also, the vowelization would be different; if the text were vowelized you would see that. I'll show the difference by transliterating the two possible meanings of the word:

    washing machine: ghassaala
    purification/purging: ghisaala

    Brother I think that you have made a typo and confused the two meanings.

    Is it not:

    ghisaala = washing machine
    ghassaala = purifying/purging [ actually this would be the same translation as in Farsi ]

    You have mentioned about vowelization being different, how did you make out which one it is [ i.e. ghassaala and not ghisaala ] ? It's just personally I couldn't tell without the vowels but it would be good and I would appreciate much if you have the time just to briefly explain how to distinguish the correct meaning without the vowels in this example.

    Again thanks for your time.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    mohammed said:
    Yes as far as I understand the rulings in that section are for water

    كتاب الطهارة
    فصل فى المياه‏


    Ok, if you say so. As I said, that explanation is plausible as well. :)




    Brother I think that you have made a typo and confused the two meanings.

    Is it not:

    ghisaala = washing machine
    ghassaala = purifying/purging [ actually this would be the same translation as in Farsi ]
    Nope, it's definitely the other way around.

    You have mentioned about vowelization being different, how did you make out which one it is [ i.e. ghassaala and not ghisaala ] ? It's just personally I couldn't tell without the vowels but it would be good and I would appreciate much if you have the time just to briefly explain how to distinguish the correct meaning without the vowels in this example.
    That's the million-dollar question! :) I don't know if there's a cut-and-dry answer - I can distinguish them based on a native feel for the language. "Ghassaala" simply sounds like "washing machine," and "ghisaala" sounds like "purification." Nevertheless, let me try to come up with an explanation...

    Using "f-3-l" (3 = ع) as a basic verb root, it is very common to see "fa33aal" with the meaning "one who/that which does."

    For example,
    barrada: to make cold [b-r-d is the root]
    barraad: that which makes cold = refrigerator

    Similarly,
    ghasala/ghassala: to wash [gh-s-l is the root]
    ghasaal: washer, one who/that which washes
    ghasaala [ghasaal + feminine ending]: washing machine

    "ghisaala" follows the pattern "fi3aala" which tends to me "the act of doing something."

    For example,
    7ama (7 = ح): to protect [7-m-a is the root]
    7imaaya: the act of protecting, protection ["a" (alef maqsurra) mutates to "y"]

    Similarly,
    ghisaala: the act of washing/purifying

    Does that help?
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Hi, Mohammad
    "Purification"/after sexual intercourse and the like called in Arabic(Ghosol)غسل
    It is the common word we use .Take it for granted
    Ayed's regards
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    elroy said:
    Nope, it's definitely the other way around.
    Ah ok, I thought it was a typo since I came across a version elsewhere that had it the other way round so wasn't sure.


    Using "f-3-l" (3 = ع) as a basic verb root, it is very common to see "fa33aal" with the meaning "one who/that which does.
    ..
    <snip>
    ..
    Similarly,
    ghisaala: the act of washing/purifying
    Does that help?
    Yes I follow what you're saying.

    Appreciate the breakdown.

    Hi, Mohammad
    "Purification"/after sexual intercourse and the like called in Arabic(Ghosol)غسل
    It is the common word we use .Take it for granted
    Ayed's regards
    Greeting to you also

    Yes I do understand that Ghusl in general refers to bathing.

    It's just the additional definition غسالة that I wanted explanation of in regards to, and context of, the ruling in the aforementioned book.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    elroy said:

    Using "f-3-l" (3 = ع) as a basic verb root, it is very common to see "fa33aal" with the meaning "one who/that which does."
    For example, ...
    ghasala/ghassala: to wash [gh-s-l is the root]
    ghasaal: washer, one who/that which washes
    ghasaala [ghasaal + feminine ending]: washing machine
    "ghisaala" follows the pattern "fi3aala" which tends to me "the act of doing something."
    Similarly,
    ghisaala: the act of washing/purifying
    Does that help?
    Very well explained Elroy. as usual :)
    Now the word ghassaala is indeed the washing machine, but as we all agree it has no place in here and doesn't make any sense.
    I would also like to add something to what Ayed has said:
    the "Act" of purging is indeed "ghosol" (or ghosl), but i think that the reference here is not to the act but to the "name" of the water used for the "ghosol".
    So I think that "ghisaala" is the name given to the water used for purging, and that this water become impure after such use (which means it can't be used again for pure actions, like wuduu2 for example)
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    Yes, like Cherine said the dirty water (the water after the ghusl) is called ghusaala. I believe ghusaala only translates as dirty water.

    The use of المسمى aids in knowing how to translate the sentence. If the author had wanted to say something like “The water used to remove filth is called complete impurity” He/she probably would have used the verb يسمي instead. But as it is he/she used the passive verbal adjective (pva) which, as the phrase suggests, is a word used as an adjective which is derived from the verb. Also, يسمي (and its verbal adjectives) can be used with the preposition بـ...ـ. So, المسمى is an adjective qualifying الماء


    The same thing happens with المستعمل in this sentence. It is a pva used to qualify water. So it is more accurately ‘the used water’ and not ‘the water used.’

    I know the line is thin concerning the difference between verbs and verbal adjectives and that correct English grammar will usually dictate how it should be translated into English. Many times either translation would work, but also many times one translation would be better than the other.

    نجس in the context of this sentence appears to be the adjective (najis) impure, and not the noun (najas) impurity. And it qualifies الماء .

    So, translations I would suggest include:

    The water used in removing filth, called ghusaala, is completely impure.

    or

    Used water in the removing of filth, called ghusaala, is completely impure.

    At least, that’s how I understand the sentence.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Now the word ghassaala is indeed the washing machine, but as we all agree it has no place in here and doesn't make any sense.
    I would also like to add something to what Ayed has said:
    the "Act" of purging is indeed "ghosol" (or ghosl), but i think that the reference here is not to the act but to the "name" of the water used for the "ghosol".
    The water used in removing filth, called ghusaala, is completely impure.

    or

    Used water in the removing of filth, called ghusaala, is completely impure.
    I would just like to say thanks to Cherine and Josh for further clarifying what is meant, it makes total sense in regards to the context.

    Again thanks to everyone who participated in this thread. Much appreciated.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Back again ..

    I just wanted confirmation that I have understood the following correctly:

    المسمى

    to mean

    also called

    as in using an alias

    i.e. The word/term used after المسمى is referring to word(s)/term that proceed it

    X المسمى Y

    X = [abbreviation of - and/or - also called]Y

    make sense?or should I scrap my algebra theory?


    Take for example:

    "منحة الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري المسمى "تحفة الباري

    So the word used after المسمى which is "تحفة الباري" is referring to/defining/naming what proceeds it i.e.
    "منحة الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري"

    So when someone then refers to "تحفة الباري" it means they are referring (also) to "منحة الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري"

    Therefore in the original ruling:

    الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا

    The reference to الغسالة is defining terminology/naming/abbreviation of الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث (as an alias) and the ruling for that (or both) is نجس مطلقا

    In addition if you google for al-musamma (in English) you will see a few Islamic book names that give two alternative names (one abbreviated version) that refer to the same book separated by al-musamma

    e.g. one site in search results it states following:

    The title page (fol. 1a) states that the treatise is a commentary on the Mūjiz (Sharh Mūjiz al-Qanun fī ‘ilm al--tibb), also called (al-musamma bi-) Hall al-Mūjiz


    Please let me know if what I said made any sense.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Ok - I realize that my initial guess was off. :) Not only does Josh's explanation make perfect sense, it has shown me that the sentence is, indeed, a complete thought. The key was the fact that نجس is an adjective here, and not a noun as I had initially assumed. Also, I wasn't aware that غسالة was a specific term referring to dirty water.

    As for the position of "used" in the English translation, I don't think there's a strict rule about that; in this case I would place it after "water" because there's more to it (it's a past participle with a prepositional phrase). The correct, idiomatic translation would therefore be

    The water used to remove filth, which is called ghisaala, is completely impure.

    A translation with "used" before "water" doesn't really work.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Thanks again elroy for your input

    Well Cherine, I don't think this topic will come to an end. I just ran into a slight problem

    Apologies for running round in circles. I just need clarification whether the following maybe a possibility.

    Someone suggested that this is a correct translation.

    الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا

    Water used in removing khabath by what is named (as) washing-machine, is absolutely impure.

    ---

    So introduction of the word 'by' changes the meaning entirely, and changes غسالة to mean 'washing-machine' rather than the 'name given to the water'.

    In regards to the possibility of such water being impure then no doubt it would be, since the water in the washing machine will become affected by removing the impurities from the clothes.

    However is the above ruling really referring to the washing machine scenario or does this simply not make sense because the terminology and wording do not permit it to mean that :

    a) by usage of the word المسمى as that refers to '(also) called', 'known as', so what comes after it should mean the same or refer to the same object/entity within the same sentence ( e.g. what proceeds it)?

    b) because there is no usage of the word 'by'

    c) because it doesn't make sense to open a door in the middle of a washing-machine session and how would you discern when the water is impure, due to there being various wash cycles and the water and clothes may have already been purified ( unless the reference is not to a washing machine but a washing tub where you have to change the water manually )

    d) because it just doesn't make any sense to translate it like that or say in that manner in Arabic

    ---

    Lastly, if someone was to say what is mentioned above in the translation (i.e. by washing-machine), how is the entire sentence best said in Arabic ? that would make sense and remove this confusion

    I would be grateful if someone could shed light on the above

    Thanks again
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    mohammed said:

    d) because it just doesn't make any sense to translate it like that or say in that manner in Arabic

    With that, you hit the nail on the head. "Washing machine" is simply not a possibility here.

    As for a translation of your suggested sentence:

    Water used in removing khabath by what is named (as) washing-machine, is absolutely impure.

    If you mean "water used in removing khabath by way of what is called a washing machine," the translation would be the following:

    الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث عن طريق المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا

    but that sentence is quite nonsensical to me. :)
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Thanks elroy, appreciate the quick reponse

    d) because it just doesn't make any sense to translate it like that or say in that manner in Arabic
    With that, you hit the nail on the head.
    Please could you (or anyone else) clarify if that also implies that b) is not an option because it doesn't exist ( i.e. in the ruling above ) or because it doesn't make sense, or both?

    "Washing machine" is simply not a possibility here.
    If anyone wishes to add anything or confirm what has been said above, I would appreciate it so as to be certain ( although I'm content with the above response) that translating as such would not make sense at all.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    mohammed said:

    Apologies for running round in circles.

    You unfortunatly are :) for we're only repeating the same things again. But no problem, in Arabic we say فى الإعادة الإفادة (repeating is useful)

    mohammed said:
    Someone suggested that this is a correct translation.
    الماء المستعمل فى رفع الخبث المسمى بالغسالة نجس مطلقا
    Water used in removing khabath by what is named (as) washing-machine, is absolutely impure.
    Well, as Elroy said, the "washing machine" thing is perfectly impossible here, it doesn't make any sense on the level of both language and logic. Removing khabath or impurities is done by taking a bath. Did you ever heard about someone who took their bath by a washing machine ? In a washing machine ? :) Of course not.


    mohammed said:
    So introduction of the word 'by' changes the meaning entirely, and changes غسالة to mean 'washing-machine' rather than the 'name given to the water'.
    The problem we agreed upon is that the word غسالة doesn't have the diacritical marks, so we can't tell for sure if it's ghisaala, ghusaala, or ghassaala (washing machine), but the thing that helps is the context. Here the context excluded this word entirely.

    mohammed said:
    In regards to the possibility of such water being impure then no doubt it would be, since the water in the washing machine will become affected by removing the impurities from the clothes.
    Do you imagin yourself taking water FROM a washing machine to take a bath with ?!!! of course not. So again, the washing machine thing is simply out of place here.

    mohammed said:
    However is the above ruling really referring to the washing machine scenario or does this simply not make sense because the terminology and wording do not permit it to mean that :

    a) by usage of the word المسمى as that refers to '(also) called', 'known as', so what comes after it should mean the same or refer to the same object/entity within the same sentence ( e.g. what proceeds it)?
    yes.

    b) because there is no usage of the word 'by'
    yes. the ب is part of a complete expression مُسمَّى بـ which means: known as, or called.

    c) because it doesn't make sense to open a door in the middle of a washing-machine session ( unless the reference is not to a washing machine but a washing tub where you have to change the water manually )
    Exactly. And not even to washing tub, we're supposed to bath with cleaned water, not with water previously used for washing clothes or plates or any such thing.

    d) because it just doesn't make any sense to translate it like that or say in that manner in Arabic
    YES :)
    I hope this time, it's clear.
    Please don't tire yourself with improbable explanations, speacially when the given answers are convincing enough and agreed upon by different persons.
     

    mohammed

    New Member
    English, Urdu
    Thanks again Cherine for being so patient and taking time out to respond

    cherine said:

    I hope this time, it's clear.
    Sure it is and I was convinced earlier too

    I just wanted to remove all doubt

    Apologies for being an annoyance to anyone
     
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