Regarding Arabic words such as "salaat" / صلاة + "hayaat" / حياة : Why is the taa marbuta at the end of the word pronounced as a 't' sound rather than 'a'. I thought it was only pronounced as a 't' when it was the initial term in an idaafa (e.g. "madeenat al-qaahira") but if the word is alone then you just pronounce it as an 'a' (e.g. "askun fi-l madeena", not "askun fi-l madeenat"). "al-hayaa" is always the word for 'life' in common speech but the newspaper is called "al-hayaat". As for "salaat" this is regularly the word for prayer, even in common speech, rather than "salaa". I was thinking that this could be because if it is pronounced with all the i'araab then the taa marbuta is pronounced as a 't' but why would full i'arab be used for these words? It can't be because it's official media because you don't say "al-jaeerat" but 'al-jazeera". Please explain! شكرا!
ـاة - صلاة ، حياة (final -t)
- Thread starter yuyu99
- Start date
Actually it should technically always be pronounced. But, most people speak Pause Form (وقف) because doing so they don't need to think of the inflections for nouns. The reason it's always said in an iDaafa is because in this construction, the two words become a phrase, and are linked in such a way. So the city of Jerusalem becomes مدينة القدس (Madiinatu 'l-qudsi), the first term is dependent on the second term. This is probably the reason even dialects preserved the /t/ in an iDaafa, hence why it's very common. (There may be a different reasons others may know of).
But by all means in الفصحى formally, it would be pronounced. "I live in the city" would be اسكن في المدينة (askun fil madeenati); but as you probably know depending on placement in sentence, or what's preceding it (like حرف جرّ) the ending becomes different based on various factors, like definiteness, whether or not it's the object of a verb, etc. The common folk don't pay attention to such strict grammatical rules, and therefore, don't pronounce it at all.
Some words may be preserved based on religious factors, like a common saying in Arabic الصلاة خير من النوم (aS-Salatu khayrun min an-nowm).
But by all means in الفصحى formally, it would be pronounced. "I live in the city" would be اسكن في المدينة (askun fil madeenati); but as you probably know depending on placement in sentence, or what's preceding it (like حرف جرّ) the ending becomes different based on various factors, like definiteness, whether or not it's the object of a verb, etc. The common folk don't pay attention to such strict grammatical rules, and therefore, don't pronounce it at all.
Some words may be preserved based on religious factors, like a common saying in Arabic الصلاة خير من النوم (aS-Salatu khayrun min an-nowm).
Serafín33
Senior Member
Español
Muwahid, I think yuyu99 is referring to the fact that the taa2 marbuuTa is usually pronounced in these words in English.
@Arabs here: is the taa2 marbuuTa normally pronounced at all times in words like صلاة or حياة in Arabic? I suspect that it's always pronounced in English because of the influence of another tradition, perhaps Turkish or Persian readings, but it's only a guess.
@Arabs here: is the taa2 marbuuTa normally pronounced at all times in words like صلاة or حياة in Arabic? I suspect that it's always pronounced in English because of the influence of another tradition, perhaps Turkish or Persian readings, but it's only a guess.
Thanks, muwahid, but I'm still not entirely clear:
I know according to strict rules of i'arab the taa marbuta should always be pronounced as a 't' but my question was: why are these specific words ("salaat" and "hayaat") regularly pronounced (in spoken Arabic and, as Neqitan says, in English transliteration too) according to the i'araab? Why do we say "saheefat al-hayaat" rather than "saheefat al-hayaa'" when we say qanaa'at al-jazeera)? The only thing I think of is that the taa marbuta in these words is preceded by an alif...
I know according to strict rules of i'arab the taa marbuta should always be pronounced as a 't' but my question was: why are these specific words ("salaat" and "hayaat") regularly pronounced (in spoken Arabic and, as Neqitan says, in English transliteration too) according to the i'araab? Why do we say "saheefat al-hayaat" rather than "saheefat al-hayaa'" when we say qanaa'at al-jazeera)? The only thing I think of is that the taa marbuta in these words is preceded by an alif...
clevermizo
Senior Member
English (USA), Spanish
It depends on dialect. Some dialects pronounce the -t when preceded by long ā and some don't. I think in Lebanese for example, it's common to say صلاة as Salāt whereas in other dialects it may be more prevalent to say Salā.
This question isn't really about the inflectional case endings in FuS7a, but about the forms in speech. If ة is preceded by ـا, in some dialects it gets pronounced like ت regardless of whether or not it's in iDāfa. That's all. It probably has to do with preserving the long vowel in the last syllable, which is normally not the case in colloquial Arabic. If you close the syllable with a -t then the long vowel is preserved. But some dialects have no issue maintaining the long vowel in this position.
There are other solutions to this issue as well. For example, in fuS7a, the feminine form of a participle like مغطّى is مغطّاة. However, in for example, Lebanese dialect, if there is no final consonant, the feminine and masculine forms would sound the same as the final vowel would be shortened in either case. In this case, the feminine form is not pronounced مغطّات * but rather مغطّاية , I believe. The addition of the yā2 protects the long alif from being shortened allowing the masculine and feminine forms to be distinguished.
Another word like this is وفاة which is pronounced وفات in some dialects and وفاة (with long ā and silent ة) in others. In any case, the desire is to preserve the long vowel. If the string wafā is not allowable, then wafāt is a solution. Otherwise it become *wafa.
Interestingly, this is not so much the case with nouns of the form فعلاء which at least in Levantine dialects regularly become فعلَ with short final 'a' after the hamza is lost accompanying a concomitant stress shift. For example, while the plural of zamīl is zumala2 in FuS7a, in Syrian it would be zəmala. where the stress has moved after losing the hamza and shortening the vowel. Also consider مساء masā2 compared to masa and not masā.
So it seems that the preference to maintain the long vowel is especially true for some reason when the word ends in ـاة . Pronouncing the tā2 marbūTa as a 't' is a solution to maintaining the long vowel if you speak a dialect that is particularly allergic to ending words in long vowels, but has needed to preserve them etymologically-speaking in certain words or contexts.
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My experience on this subject has been quite different:
1. "salaat" / صلاة + "hayaat" / حياة are regularly pronounced (in Arabic) without the "t" unless in idhaafa. Clevermizo states that in some dialects the "t" is pronounced regardless of word position, but I believe that in Khaleeji and Egyptian it is not.
Even during the recitation of the أَذَّان , when the caller says: حي على الصلاة , the final "t" of الصلاة is not heard. This can be verified by actually listening to examples of the
أَذَّان on the internet (or in real life if you're living in a Muslim country).
2. You are correct, however, when you state that when these and similar words appear in English, they are regularly written with a "t" at the end, giving the impression that the "t" is also pronounced in Arabic in all positions (which is not true).
This is probably done out of a "sense of correctness", more than anything else, since the Arabic words do indeed have a (t) written at the end. In other words, the transcriber is simply following the Arabic spelling and not the Arabic pronunciation.
3. Google (translation section) provides a "sound" example of these 2 words and there, the "t" is pronounced.
4. Wikipedia (under: Adhan) shows:
| 2x | حي على الصلاة | Hayya 'ala-salahh | Come to salat (prayer, worship) |
Note: Why the English Hayya 'ala-salahh has the double "h" at the end, I don't know, since the double "h" is not written nor pronounced in Arabic. It's probably simply a scriptural "affectation" of some sort.
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I almost never hear the word حياة with the final /t/ in spoken Arabic. I haven't actually paid much attention to it though, I usually hear the word صلاة in formal religious contexts, but I think I've heard it more times than not with the /t/.
As for the adhaan, it's pretty common to not pronounce the final vowel, take this range from the Qur'an (53:57-58)
أَزِفَتِ ٱلۡأَزِفَةُ
لَيۡسَ لَهَا مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ كَاشِفَةٌ
It would be pronounced azifati 'l-2aazifa, laysa lahaa min duni 'llaahi kaashifa
As for the adhaan, it's pretty common to not pronounce the final vowel, take this range from the Qur'an (53:57-58)
أَزِفَتِ ٱلۡأَزِفَةُ
لَيۡسَ لَهَا مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ كَاشِفَةٌ
It would be pronounced azifati 'l-2aazifa, laysa lahaa min duni 'llaahi kaashifa
إسكندراني
Senior Member
عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
In the Qur'aan, it's not pronounced if we stop. That is the only correct way. If it is pronounced as we stop, it is an odd dialectal feature, but usually a different language - turkish or persian.
Arabus
Senior Member
Arabic-Aleppo
There is no dialectical difference. People normally would not pronounce the final t, but some people pronounce it because of the influence of the literary language. That is all. All spoken dialects naturally drop the final t, except for some marginal rural dialects in Palestine (now called Israel) and in Mount Lebanon. These dialects are very rarely heard nowadays. People who speak those dialects would say khamsat instead of khamsa for five, but this is very exceptional and I don't think any of you will ever hear it in reality.
Learning Arabic
New Member
English-USA
Generally, in formal speech, when you have a taa marbuta or a hamza at the end, you don't pronounce it if it's at the end of the sentence. And there are examples of this being done even in classical times, where a person would mention that they were unsure if what a person said was one word or another (because they weren't sure if it was the word that ended with a hamza or ith taa marbuta). And in terms of Quranic reading, these two aren't pronounced if it's at the end of the "sentence".
In your opinion, would they also say JIDDAT (جدّة ) for the Red Sea port city in Saudi Arabia?
Or AL_QAHIRAT ( القاهرة ) for Cairo? That would be highly unusual indeed.
clevermizo
Senior Member
English (USA), Spanish
That's interesting. I thought in Syria 7ayāt was commoner than 7ayā. So it's always 7ayā?
Arabus
Senior Member
Arabic-Aleppo
No. I said:
The original form in Syrian is 7aya, like in the expression been el-7aya wel-moot بين الحياة والموت.
7ayā/7ayāt are interchangeable in Syria as well as in Arabia and everywhere. There is no dialectical difference.
The original form in Syrian is 7aya, like in the expression been el-7aya wel-moot بين الحياة والموت.
When you try to study the etymology of spoken Arabic words you must take into consideration the influence of the literary language on the spoken language, which is an immense influence.
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clevermizo
Senior Member
English (USA), Spanish
Thanks for clarifying. I am aware that the literary language has a huge effect on spoken language; I was just mistaken in thinking this particular example was that of a dialectal difference.
I used that as another example because in both Arabic and English the newspaper الحياة is pronounced "al-hayāt" rather than "al-hayāa"...
I don't agree regarding the hamza. I, at least, always pronounce word final hamzas.
I have never pronounced, nor heard pronounced in the modern vernacular, صلاة as salaat. I've always pronounced it salaa.
As for حياة, I've heard both 7ayaa" and 7ayaat used somewhat interchangeably. Same goes for وفاة.
Serafín33
Senior Member
Español
In Syrian Arabic, where does the word stress in "Hayaa" go? Háyaa? Hayáa?
إسكندراني
Senior Member
عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
The stress is always on the long vowel, which is the second one in حياة
WadiH
Senior Member
Arabic
I beg to differ. In our dialect, people normally pronounce the final 't' (in words where it preceded by an aleph, like حياة). This is not due to the influence of MSA. If anything, the influence of MSA should be the opposite since MSA mandates the dropping of the 't' in the final form. You even find Saudi speakers preserving the 't' in MSA in the pausal form even though the MSA rule is to drop the 't' in such situations. Even when it is dropped, it is not pronounced "7aya" but rather "7ayaah". If you say "7aya" people will think you're saying حيا (which means rain or the cognate with MSA حياء).
For words where the ـة is not preceded by an aleph, the traditional way is to drop the 't' in the pausal form and to preserve it mid-sentence, but under the influence of other dialects, young urban people drop the 't' at all times. There are a couple of traditional dialects that preserved the 't' in all cases (even before a pause) (the dialect of the Shammar tribe and the dialects of 'Asiir in southwestern Saudi Arabia).
Arabus
Senior Member
Arabic-Aleppo
I didn't say MSA. I said the literary language. The influence of the literary language on the spoken language predates MSA by many centuries, especially for words related to religion.
حياء and حياة are different in the spoken language because the accent is different in both (['ha.ja] vs. [ha.'jaa]), not because the final t is presarved in the second. This is a myth. Also I believe most people in the 19th century pronounced both words the same ['ha.ja] (as evidenced by proverbs and frozen expressions). The fact that حياة is widely pronounced today [ha.'jaa]/[ha.'jaat] is due to the increase in literacy.
حياء and حياة are different in the spoken language because the accent is different in both (['ha.ja] vs. [ha.'jaa]), not because the final t is presarved in the second. This is a myth. Also I believe most people in the 19th century pronounced both words the same ['ha.ja] (as evidenced by proverbs and frozen expressions). The fact that حياة is widely pronounced today [ha.'jaa]/[ha.'jaat] is due to the increase in literacy.
WadiH
Senior Member
Arabic
How is the rule on اة different in MSA from the literary language?
Just to be clear: are you talking about Syria here or Arabic dialects, generally?
Yes, traditionally, there are dialects in the Arabian Peninsula that would say القاهرت instead of القاهرة (there's a famous طاش ما طاش character that talks like that
).That is indeed remarkable. Thanks for the information. (I may just adopt this practice in my own speech patterns just to see the reactionsYes, traditionally, there are dialects in the Arabian Peninsula that would say القاهرت instead of القاهرة (there's a famous طاش ما طاش character that talks like that
)
إسكندراني
Senior Member
عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
^You would sound quite Ottoman, and the listeners might start calling you things like 'sa3adt el baasha'.
WadiH
Senior Member
Arabic
Well it wasn't clear to me whether my friend Arabus's statements on [haja] vs. [hajaa], etc. were restricted to Syrian Arabic or whether he meant that they applied to all Arabic dialects. I'm assuming it was the former, but since I had prepared a post on this anyway, I might as well post it for information purposes.
In this country, "7aya" means either حيا (as in rain) or حياء. If you say "el 7aya wil mot" here people will conclude you're Syrian or Palestinian.
In Syria, perhaps, but certainly not in Arabia. This also evidenced by our proverbs and frozen expressions, but in addition to that, our traditional poetry would be otherwise unreadable (metrically, that is):
Traditionally, Arabian Arabic treated the 'taa marbuuTa' essentially in the same way as Classical Arabic, except that, in the pausal form, it was common to keep the 't' when preceded by an aleph, i.e. اة. It's possible that this "-aat" form developed from an older "-aah" form (which also exists and is evidenced by the poetry). One thing is for sure, they never said anything like "حيا" for حياة. Otherwise, as I said, the poetic metre would not work, and we wouldn't have place names like التنهات in the middle of the desert (Yaquut has it as التنهاة) or a town called مرات even though it appears in the Classical literature as مراة or مرأة. The central square in old Riyadh is called الصفاة and it is pronounced الصفات (it's possible that people once said الصفاه, but never الصفا). If you look at this small dictionary of traditional Najdi words you'll notice how almost all the words that, etymologically, should be spelled with اة are instead spelled with ات (a few are spelled with اة but none are spelled with ا alone). These are very old words: most of these words are completely unknown today.
So to summarise, in Arabia, words that, in CA/MSA, would end in اة are pronounced with "-aat" or "-aah" but never just "a." Perhaps the preservation of the 't' (in the pausal form) in Arabia was an innovation, but if it was then it is not a recent one by any means (it was already widespread in the 19th and early 20th century when the vast majority of the population was illiterate and probably long before then), and it would not have replaced an older "-a" form but rather a form "-aah" (again, only in the pausal form). It is not due to the influence of the literary language but rather in spite of such influence, i.e. it was part of the natural evolution of the dialect.
In this country, "7aya" means either حيا (as in rain) or حياء. If you say "el 7aya wil mot" here people will conclude you're Syrian or Palestinian.
In Syria, perhaps, but certainly not in Arabia. This also evidenced by our proverbs and frozen expressions, but in addition to that, our traditional poetry would be otherwise unreadable (metrically, that is):
دنّ الدواة ودنّ لي طلّحية || أرسم بمبريّ اليراع سْطورها
الله من عينٍ إلى ناموا الملا || قزّت لكن التوتيان ذرورها
متذكّرٍ عصرٍ مضى لي فايت || ما قلّطت فيه الوشاة سبورها
(17th century poem)
غدينا سْوَاة صْلَيْب يوخون بالقرى // حياة الوزى ما بي حياةٍ مريبة
وانا والمشاعيب العصاة على العدا // مشاعيب بَايّام اللقا ننتخي به
(18th century poem)
أياة خمسينٍ تعشّيهم الشاة || من زوبعٍ وضياغمٍ خالطينه
أيّاتهم وأيّاة خيلٍ مريحات || وجيشٍ يعزّل من وراها كمينه
بايْمانهم مثل الحوص المدلاّة || والريش من فوق الغلب مردفينه
***
بايْمانهم مثل المحوص المدلاّة || والريش من فوق الغلَب مردفينه
تلفي غلامٍ بالمدارك رماني || رمية حصاةٍ في هدايم خرابة
ياخوي عندي لك وصاةً مصيبة || تراها وصاةٍ تلمس العقل وتصيب
ترى وصاة أخوك ما به معيبه || يا صار أخوك مكمل العقل ومنيب
(19th century bedouin poetry)
الله من عينٍ إلى ناموا الملا || قزّت لكن التوتيان ذرورها
متذكّرٍ عصرٍ مضى لي فايت || ما قلّطت فيه الوشاة سبورها
(17th century poem)
غدينا سْوَاة صْلَيْب يوخون بالقرى // حياة الوزى ما بي حياةٍ مريبة
وانا والمشاعيب العصاة على العدا // مشاعيب بَايّام اللقا ننتخي به
(18th century poem)
أياة خمسينٍ تعشّيهم الشاة || من زوبعٍ وضياغمٍ خالطينه
أيّاتهم وأيّاة خيلٍ مريحات || وجيشٍ يعزّل من وراها كمينه
بايْمانهم مثل الحوص المدلاّة || والريش من فوق الغلب مردفينه
***
بايْمانهم مثل المحوص المدلاّة || والريش من فوق الغلَب مردفينه
تلفي غلامٍ بالمدارك رماني || رمية حصاةٍ في هدايم خرابة
ياخوي عندي لك وصاةً مصيبة || تراها وصاةٍ تلمس العقل وتصيب
ترى وصاة أخوك ما به معيبه || يا صار أخوك مكمل العقل ومنيب
(19th century bedouin poetry)
Traditionally, Arabian Arabic treated the 'taa marbuuTa' essentially in the same way as Classical Arabic, except that, in the pausal form, it was common to keep the 't' when preceded by an aleph, i.e. اة. It's possible that this "-aat" form developed from an older "-aah" form (which also exists and is evidenced by the poetry). One thing is for sure, they never said anything like "حيا" for حياة. Otherwise, as I said, the poetic metre would not work, and we wouldn't have place names like التنهات in the middle of the desert (Yaquut has it as التنهاة) or a town called مرات even though it appears in the Classical literature as مراة or مرأة. The central square in old Riyadh is called الصفاة and it is pronounced الصفات (it's possible that people once said الصفاه, but never الصفا). If you look at this small dictionary of traditional Najdi words you'll notice how almost all the words that, etymologically, should be spelled with اة are instead spelled with ات (a few are spelled with اة but none are spelled with ا alone). These are very old words: most of these words are completely unknown today.
So to summarise, in Arabia, words that, in CA/MSA, would end in اة are pronounced with "-aat" or "-aah" but never just "a." Perhaps the preservation of the 't' (in the pausal form) in Arabia was an innovation, but if it was then it is not a recent one by any means (it was already widespread in the 19th and early 20th century when the vast majority of the population was illiterate and probably long before then), and it would not have replaced an older "-a" form but rather a form "-aah" (again, only in the pausal form). It is not due to the influence of the literary language but rather in spite of such influence, i.e. it was part of the natural evolution of the dialect.
[Moderator note: Thread merged with the previous one about the same topic. Cherine]
Good morning,
could anyone explain me why in Arabic people pronounce systematically the word صلاة as "salaT"?
That ta' marbuta is pronounced even in dialects, but when the word is any other ending in ta' marbuta (madina, jazeera...), that "T" is not pronounced at all.
What's the reason of this behaviour?
Many thanks
Good morning,
could anyone explain me why in Arabic people pronounce systematically the word صلاة as "salaT"?
That ta' marbuta is pronounced even in dialects, but when the word is any other ending in ta' marbuta (madina, jazeera...), that "T" is not pronounced at all.
What's the reason of this behaviour?
Many thanks
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Mahaodeh
Senior Member
Arabic, PA and IA.
Technically, it should be treated the same way as the others and the word pronounced Salaa if it is not part of a sentence or it's the end of the sentence. This is how it was pronounced in Classical Arabic and how it should be pronounced in MSA (I frankly don't recall it being pronounced incorrectly in MSA but it's possible because the speaker may not be well versed).
In many dialects the taa' is not pronounced unless the word is مضاف to another word such as صلاة الجمع. It's usually not pronounced even if it's in the middle of the sentence such as something like بعد ما تخلّص صلاة تعال. This probably has to do with the fact that we don't use حركات in dialects except in المضاف and in this case it's always using a كسرة regardless of the grammatical use of the word.
However, I do agree that occasionally I hear it pronounced in the wrong place but I wouldn't say this is systematic - at least not in PA and IA, the two dialects I'm mostly familiar with. I even feel that when it's pronounced in the wrong place it's not natural and the person is just trying too hard!
At least this is how I feel, I may be wrong.
PS. This applies to similar words such as قضاة ودعاة ونواة (I understand the first two are plurals unlike the third one and the word in question, but the form is sort of similar in that it ends with an alif and a taa' marbouTa).
In many dialects the taa' is not pronounced unless the word is مضاف to another word such as صلاة الجمع. It's usually not pronounced even if it's in the middle of the sentence such as something like بعد ما تخلّص صلاة تعال. This probably has to do with the fact that we don't use حركات in dialects except in المضاف and in this case it's always using a كسرة regardless of the grammatical use of the word.
However, I do agree that occasionally I hear it pronounced in the wrong place but I wouldn't say this is systematic - at least not in PA and IA, the two dialects I'm mostly familiar with. I even feel that when it's pronounced in the wrong place it's not natural and the person is just trying too hard!
At least this is how I feel, I may be wrong.
PS. This applies to similar words such as قضاة ودعاة ونواة (I understand the first two are plurals unlike the third one and the word in question, but the form is sort of similar in that it ends with an alif and a taa' marbouTa).
In Classical Arabic, صَلَاةُ/صَلَاةَ/صَلاةِ/صَلاةٌ/صَلَاةً/صَلاةٍ are pronounced صَلَاهْ salaah (with an 'h') when paused at. If صَلَاةُ/صَلَاةَ/صَلاةِ are read with the following word, they're pronounced صَلَاتُ/صَلَاتَ/صَلَاتِ salaatu/salaata/salaati. If صَلاةٌ/صَلَاةً/صَلاةٍ are read with the following word, they are pronounced صَلَاتُنْ/صَلَاتَنْ/صَلَاتِنْ salaatun/salaatan/salaatin. The pronunciation صَلَا salaa is modern.
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Mahaodeh
Senior Member
Arabic, PA and IA.
There is a faint haa here too, isn't there? You can't help but pronounce it because after an alif air is discharged from the mouth creating the haa sound even if it was not intentional.
Eternal student
Senior Member
English - London
My impression has always been that in ordinary speech (not attempts to speak Classical/MSA), some dialects routinely pronounce a final t in these اة words in all positions (e.g. Syrian), whereas some only pronounce the t when the word is a مضاف or has a pronoun suffix (e.g. Egyptian). Is this not correct?
The normal relfex for Classical ـاة in most (all?) modern dialects is usually -āt. However in some (all?) dialects, the word صلاة is pronounced ṣalāh under the influence of Classical Arabic assumedly because it is considered a high-register word. This tends not to be the case with other words, for example I would expect to hear حياة pronounced uniformly as ḥayāt in vernacular Arabic.
Abu Talha
Senior Member
Urdu
See also this thread: ـاة - صلاة ، حياة (final -t)
Maybe. I pronounced it a few times and I can't decide if I actually hear it or not. However, in Classical Arabic phonology, if we were to compare the two nouns الحيا and الحياة, for example, their pronunciations would be described differently.
Mahaodeh
Senior Member
Arabic, PA and IA.
I don't thinks so. I commonly hear it without the final taa'.
Again, I disagree. My grandmother was barely educated (she only finished primary school), and she always pronounced it without a final taa'. Not as it is in Classical Arabic, but in the way her dialect (PA) pronounced it, with a shorter final alif (Sala, not Salaa). This had nothing to do with Classical Arabic or a high register word. The same applies to حياة, where it's pronounced actually the same way that حياء is pronounced in PA.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it wasn't pronounced differently, but I'm finding it hard to figure out what exactly was different. The two words above are pronounced differently even in MSA as the first is pronounced with a shorter vowel in the end than the second - Haya vs. Hayaa(h). That's why I'm saying it's hard not pronounce a faint haa', the vowel is too long. I don't know if what I'm saying is observed by anyone but I feel that the vowel is longer because the taa' is somehow turned into an alif and merged with the first one. It's the same difference between عصا and عصاة.
cherine
Moderator
Arabic (Egypt).
This is not the case for Egyptian Arabic. We pronounce the word without a final taa2, and we even shorten the vowel so it's pronounced صَلَة and the taa2 marbuuta is pronounced like a h.
In the إقامة you would hear قد قامت الصلاةُ قد قامت الصلاة the first صلاة is Salaatu and the second is Salaah.
For the other words with ـاة the taa2 is almost a haa2. I can only think of one example el-7ayaa(h).
I guess I spoke to boldly before, I should have said 'some dialects'. Certainly in Iraqi the general reflex is -āt, an example from poetry would be: لو شفت جسم الي على المسناة مطروح lō šifit jism illi ʕla il-msannāt maṭrūħ. In the above dialects would you then expect to hear msannah for مسناة?
Mahaodeh
Senior Member
Arabic, PA and IA.
I didn't mention Iraqi Arabic because I'm not so sure here. In the case of صلاة وحياة I've heard both versions, with Salaa more likely to be pronounced without the taa' and Hayaat more likely to be pronounced with the taa'. I don't ever recall hearing قناة without a taa' and I don't ever recall hearing عصاة with a taa' except in iDafa such as عصاتي أو عصاة فلان, and I know it's not عصا because the latter is also used and the pronunciation is different (3aSaa vs. 3aSa).
I don't know if this is regional or generational or a gradual change in the dialect, I'm guessing it's probably not the first because I don't recall hearing one Iraqi dialect pronouncing it more than others but I might be mistaken.
Yes, I'd expect that, but I can't be sure because this is not a word you hear often.
Hemza
Senior Member
French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
According to what I hear from my family in Morocco, حياة is said 7ayaat but صلاة and قناة are respectively said Slaa and Qana/Gana (I feel this latter is said with a short ending but I'm not sure) except when used with الإضافة
I discovered the 7ayaa pronunciation with my Egyptian friend.
I discovered the 7ayaa pronunciation with my Egyptian friend.
Ali Smith
Senior Member
Urdu - Pakistan
I believe at least some Arabs pronounce the name of the newspaper "al-Hayah" rather than "al-Hayat".
It is also worth mentioning that Arabs never pronounce زكاة "zakaat"; it's always "zakaah".
WadiH
Senior Member
Arabic
That's not true. In Saudi Arabia you rarely here the latter.
Sadda7
Senior Member
Arabic - Algerian
The same thing in Algeria, the ة in words ending with اة like صلاة زكاة قناة is always pronounced.
And other words ending with ة like قرية ولاية محكمة, the ة is silent regardless of the position of the word.
WadiH
Senior Member
Arabic
Not in construct (iDaafah) state, though, right?
Sadda7
Senior Member
Arabic - Algerian
You're right, in idafah it is pronounced.
Hemza
Senior Member
French, Mor/Hijz Arabic (heritage)
Same in Morocco.
I have two questions please.
1. In MSA, is the final ۃ of words such as حیاۃ, فتاۃ، صلاۃ pronounced as an "h" sound ہ?
2. In MSA, in non-final position, is this ۃ pronounced as "t" or "h" or not pronounced at all?