كان + Perfect / وقد + Perfect

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by lena55313, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Hi, could please anybody explain me the difference in using كان + Perfect and وقد + Perfect when they are the marks of the Pluperfect.
    It is said in the Wright Grammar Vol 2, articles 3b and 3c, p.5, that parts of the sentences with the كان or the وقد both are the الحال - tha state of condition. There are two sentences below:
    1. أَخْرَجَهُ وَقَدْ عُمِّىَ - he led him out blinded
    2
    . مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَكَانَ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَانَ - Ar-Rashid died at Tus, after he had set out to Horasan.
    In both cases the parts marked by the
    كان or the وقد expressed the explanation of the state of condition in which the action took place.
    1. Somebody had blinded him before he was taken out. He had been already blinded
    2. Ar-Rashid died after he had set out to Horasan. He had been already in the country of Horasan when died in the city of Tus, which was inside the country of Horasan.
    If the
    كان and the وقد play here the same role is it possible to interchange them in the sentences without loosing the meaning of the sentences?
    As below:

    1. أَخْرَجَهُ وَكَانَ عُمِّىَ
    2. مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَقَدْ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَانَ

    What I'd like to know asking this question is to feel the general difference in using كان + Perfect and وقد + Perfect, not only in these particular examples
    Thank you in advance.
    Now I can see only one difference. In the first sentence the man was late to come and the another man had been blinded. In the second sentence on the contrary Ar-Rashid came in time just to meet his death.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  2. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic(Saudi)
    أخرجه وقد عمي= He reported it (a Hadith) as he was alread blind
    مات الرشيد بطوس وقد خرج إلى خراسان= Al-Rashid had set out to Khurasaan and died in Tus
     
  3. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    This sentence seems odd.
     
  4. elroy

    elroy Sharp-heeled Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    It sounds fine to me. He died after having gone to Khorasan.
     
  5. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    It sounds the opposite to me and this is not possible.

    مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَقَدْ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَان
    What is the difference between كان خرج and قد خرج?
     
  6. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Yes, that was the question. Because in the Wright's the كان + Perfect and وقد + Perfect were placed in dseparate articles. So, may be the using of them are also different.
    I found the difference about which I'd told in the starting post, this one:
    But now I've found one more difference
    1. أَخْرَجَهُ وَقَدْ عُمِّىَ - he led him out blinded - there are two subjects : the man who led and the man who was blinded.
    2. مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَكَانَ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَانَ - Ar-Rashid died at Tus, after he had set out to Horasan. - there is only one subject - Ar-Rashid- he died and he set out.
     
  7. elroy

    elroy Sharp-heeled Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    For that, I would not use قد with the second verb.

    جاء جميل وقد ابتلّت ثيابه
    This, to me, means that his clothes were wet when he arrived.

    جاء جميل وابتلّت ثيابه
    This means that his clothes got wet after he arrived.
     
  8. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Is it possible to say جاء جميل وكانت ابتلّت ثيابه ?
    And if it's possible, what does it mean?
     
  9. elroy

    elroy Sharp-heeled Mod

    Chicago, IL
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I would use قد (جاء جميل وكانت قد ابتلّت ثيابه / كانت ثيابه قد ابتلّت), but I think yours may be correct as well.

    Either way, the meaning would be that his clothes were wet when he arrived.
     
  10. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I would not use it too.
    This sounds fine
    but مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَقَدْ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَان still odd to me.
    Agree. :thumbsup:
    Also we can say جاء جميل وثيابه مبتلة
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2019 at 11:31 AM
  11. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic(Saudi)
    What is the corrct translation then?
     
  12. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    I'm sorry, but I still can't see the difference between using كان + the Perfect verb and وقد + the Perfect verb. )))
    Can you please don't touch any cases outside the scope of the topic. I always for the free and unrescticted discussions but I hoped to find in this topic the difference only between these two cases that look for me very similar, but in the grammar book they are devided into two different articles without the explanations about their similarities and differences.
    I gave the link and the number of the page. This part of the book is about the Pluperfect - in English it is the Past Perfect. There are variants of forming the Past Perfect (it is said in the book):
    1. Perfect+Perfect
    2. كان + Perfect
    3. وقد + Perfect
    4. قد + كان + Perfect
    If we are not touching now the numbers 1 and 4 what can you say about numbers 2 and 3?
    All examples I gave are from the book, the english translation is also from the book. And I have a question why in the sentence 1. أَخْرَجَهُ وَقَدْ عُمِّىَ - he led him out blinded it was used the وَقَدْ, is it possible to use in this sentence كان instead of وَقَدْ? If you think it is possible, can you please explain would it be any differences in their meanings. If you think that the new sentence sounds odd, can you please explain why.
     
  13. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I don't know if there is a specific rule for using كان +past or قد +past tense
    It's right that قد used in indication التحقيق and to approximate the past to the present التقريب (and in other cases)
    but the difference between it and كان is not that clear.

    In simple sentences like:
    1-لعبت بالكرة , بنيت منزلا , اشتريت حقيبة
    2-وقد لعبت بالكرة , وقد بنيت منزلا, وقد اشتريت حقيبة
    3-كنت قد لعبت بالكرة , كنت قد بنيت منزلا , كنت قد اشتريت حقيبة

    -The first is a past simple tense so the translation is: I played football , I built a house , I bought a bag.
    -The second is قد and usually we translate قد+past simple in Arabic into the past perfect in English : I have played football, I have built a house , I have bought a bag.
    -The third :I don't know what the translation would be but I think if there is two sentences then قد+كان+past indicate that this is the first action happened.
    - كان +past tense is correct but usually we don't use it so, it's better to not use it.

    In general , we use either قد+past or just the verb in the past tense (1 and 2) in any case and both are correct.
    I think it's possible to use كان but I couldn't get the meaning of this sentence to explain the differences in their meaning.
     
  14. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    مات الرشيد بطوس وقد خرج إلى خراسان
    I wouldn't say it this way in Arabic.
    In English as you said "Al-Rashid had set out to Khurasan and died in Tus."
    and elroy said "He died in Tus after having gone to Khorasan."
     
  15. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Sun_shine, thank you for your reply. As I see the كان +past tense came from the antient times and is not in use nowadays. I got it.
    But you wrote before:
    Can you explain please, why you feel it odd? What's wrong with it?
    And what about the initial sentence from the book:
    Does it seem odd to you too? May be it's just a very old sentence, and nobody speaks like this nowadays? Or does this sentence seem OK for you?

    The next point. It is told in the book that both the كان + Perfect and the وقد + Perfect are used in a role of الحال in the sentences where one part of the sentence depends on another part of it. As I understand it, it's imposible to use وقد + Perfect in the sentences where the part of the sentence are not depend upon each other.
    That is why, I think that your can't use the example below:
    Here should be the Simple Perfect.
     
  16. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Hi Ayed
    You gave the same translation as it had been in the grammar book. Do you think that the meaning of the sentence with كان was the same to the meaning of the sentence with وقد
    Nothing has been changed?
     
  17. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    This sentence is confusing because some would understand it as he died after having gone to Khorasan
    but to other ,including me, it seems the opposite (that he died first) and this is impossible.

    It seems OK but I wouldn't use it like that.

    You mean the particle "و" ?
    -I said وقد because this is not the beginning of the sentence.
    -You can use قد in the beginning of the sentence (without و)
     
  18. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    It's really very interesting. But if we leave the كَانَ in the sentence it would not look as he had died first and then went to Horosan? But why? It's written in the book that the قد and the كَانَ both were the marks of Past Perfect. Maybe in MSA the قد doesn't play this role nowadays?
    Then what can you say about the sentence أَخْرَجَهُ وَقَدْ عُمِّىَ If we use the same logic, the meaning of the sentence would be like: Somobody(the man-1) led him (the man-2) out and after that the man-2 was blinded.
    No. I ment that the Past Perfect can't be alone, without the preceding or the subsequent clause of the Simple Past. Because the Past Perfect is the mark of the event that happend before something mentioned before or after.

    Sorry, I've just noticed that you'd written in your English examples the have, not the had. Maybe you ment the Present Perfect? If so I understand what you mean but in this case the قد means the 'already' or 'surely' and it is out of the scope of my question which concerns only the using of the قد for expressing the event-1 that was happend before the event-2, as in English Past Perfect.
    May be my assumption that the قد+past simple is not used for forming the Past Perfect nowadays is right?
     
  19. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I'm really sorry, it's my fault
    I mean the present perfect
    This depends on the person who reads the sentence.
    Of course anyone reads this sentence with قد or كان will understand that he went to Khorasan first because the opposite is not possible
    but in other sentences a person may be confused about which of them happened first.
    it seems fine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2019 at 11:32 AM
  20. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Than you, Sun_shine! And what do you think about this:
    Can you give some modern language examples where the قد+past simple would be in the meaning of Past Perfect?
    How would you say in arabic in natural way, for example, this:
    The boy went into the building and saw his father who had come to the place earlier.
     
  21. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I think it's when you say قد+كان+ past
    e.g.كان قد جاء
    ذهب الولد للمبنى و رأى والده/أباه الذي كان قد جاء لهذا المكان مبكرا
     
  22. lena55313 Senior Member

    Russian-Russia
    Thank you, Sun_shine!!! In the modern language things are more easy than in all these antient books.)))
     
  23. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    You're welcome.
     
  24. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    London, UK
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I have to admit that half way through I got bored and skipped it because the discussion seemed to me to be repeating itself. Hence I don't know if anyone mentioned this before.
    كان + فعل ماض means that the action has happened in a time prior to the past that the sentence is talking about, it's known as الماضي البعيد (it doesn't necessarily mean ancient, just before the time we are talking about). Hence the sentence: مَاتَ الرَّشِيدُ بِطُوسَ وَكَانَ خَرَجَ إلى خُرَاسَانَ means that Al Rasheed died in Tus and he had left to Khurasan prior to that.

    قد is a little bit more complex. It is حرف تحقيق وتقريب وتقليل وتوقّع; we can forget about تقليل وتوقّع because they always come with فعل مضارع. With فعل ماض it could be either حرف تحقيق أو حرف تقريب. In the case of أخرجه وقد عمي it is حرف تحقيق because what is meant here is not that "the time of him becoming blind is immanent" (as in قد قامت الصلاة, that means 'the time of prayer is immanent'), it means that he is already blind. The difference between أخرجه وقد عمي and أخرجه وهو أعمى is that the first implies that he wasn't blind, then he became blind, then he was led out; whereas the second doesn't imply that, for all we know he could have always been blind.

    Of course it does, because here it means that after he died in Tus, he left for Khurasan. If you say something like: نزل الرشيد بطوس وقد خرج إلى خراسان, it no longer seems odd, does it? Because it means that he styed in Tus, and then he left for Khurasan. It also implies that he didn't set out for Khurasan until after he stayed in Tus, and now he had already left for it. Whereas if you say نزل الرشيد بطوس وكان خرج إلى خراسان it means that he stayed in Tus after he set out for Khurasan, so he was on his way when he stayed for a while in Tus.

    Thus, the sentence مات الرشيد بطوس وكان خرج إلى خراسان is correct and it means that Al Rasheed set out for Khurasan, when he reached Tus he died. No contradiction here. He had set out for Khurasan in a past that is prior to his death that happened also in a past but after he set out for Khurasan.

    In dialects we replace كان + فعل ماض with كان + اسم فاعل and would say something like: مات الرشيد بطوس وكان رايح ع خراسان. In Classical Arabic there is a difference between the two.
     
  25. ayed

    ayed Senior Member

    Riyadh
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Tus is in Khrasan
     
  26. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    London, UK
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    Huh, I did not know that. It makes the sentence نزل بطوس وقد خرج إلى خراسان also incorrect. In this case وقد خرج إلى خراسان incorrect no matter what the first verb is because he is already in Khurasan.

    It doesn't affect the one with كان, just my understanding. كان خرج still indicates الماضي البعيد except that his death did not simply happen after he set out, it seemed to have happened after he reached Khurasan.
     
  27. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    Yes, that's my opinion too.
     

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