كم + noun

Douglas

Senior Member
USA ENGLISH
Please forgive me for my two sents worth. Yes, it is true that the adverb is generally in the accusative. But in exlamations it is in the genitive. Such as: كم كاس شربتSo, I still think that we should use ظرف as the equivalent of adverb. The accusative is the general result of the ظرف. . .

I am sure our valueable teachers want us to speak up.

Also, bilmunasebeti iyd-il fitir, etmennalekum kulli aamin bilheyr. .

Discussion split from here.
 
  • Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    Douglas said:
    Please forgive me for my two sents worth. Yes, it is true that the adverb is generally in the accusative. But in exlamations it is in the genitive. Such as: كم كاس شربت
    I don't know whether it is worth a new thread, but could you (or anyone else) elaborate on it?

    Jana
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Douglas said:
    Please forgive me for my two sents worth. Yes, it is true that the adverb is generally in the accusative. But in exlamations it is in the genitive. Such as: كم كاس شربتSo, I still think that we should use ظرف as the equivalent of adverb. The accusative is the general result of the ظرف. . .

    I am sure our valueable teachers want us to speak up.

    Also, bilmunasabati iyd-il fitir, atamanna lakum as-sa3aada/as-suruur...

    kullu aamin wa-antum bilhayr.

    You can't say "atamanna lakum kulla..." That's saying "I wish you may you be well every year."
    I'm not sure I know what you're talking about. Could you explain what you mean - ideally with Arabic grammatical terms?

    As far as using "adverb" to mean ظرف, I think we've all agreed it's more precise and faithful to stick with the Arabic terms...:) But yes, "adverb" is the best of the [fill in number] evils.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Douglas,
    Do you mean to say that the sentence كم كأسًا شربت can both be interrogative and exclamatory depending on the meaning or the punctuation?
    If so, I disagree. If you want to use the exclamation, you'll only say : كم شربتُ!
    Elroy, your take ?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Absolutely. To me, the other sentence can only mean "how many glasses did I have (drink)?"

    In order to express the "exclamatory" idea using "glass," I can imagine

    !كم من الكؤوس شربت
     

    Douglas

    Senior Member
    USA ENGLISH
    Thank you. All I am saying is that when use an exclamation as in How many glasses of water I drank! كم كاس شربت To my knowledge we use the genitive. i.e. we say Kam kassin sheribtu instead of Kam kassen sheribtu. This naturally is an exception. But an adverb is an adverb. The accusative is only its function. Because sometimes as in exclamations its function can become "genitive."

    I always learn from you but I think we should translate ظرف as adverb and not accusative.

    Regards,

    ref. Teach yourself Arabic. A. S. Tritton p.61
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    I hope it is all right if I chime in a little bit.

    كم can be used both as an interrogative and an exclamation (I checked with my Hans Wehr dictionary just to be sure, but I couldn't find it in just a cursory look through my grammar books). It is always followed by an accusative. So it would be 'kam kaasan!'. The only time it is not followed by an accusative is when it has the meaning of 'how much (is)' and is followed by a definite noun, in which case the noun is in the nominative. For example: كم الساعة؟ .

    Also, ظرف would be most correctly translated as adverb in English.
    Accusative would be either حالة النصب or المنصوب .
    For genitive either حالة الخر or المخرور.
    For nominative I use either حالة الرفع or المرفوع .
     

    Douglas

    Senior Member
    USA ENGLISH
    Hi there Josh,

    First we agree that adverb is ظرف and accusative is المنصوب .

    Where we do not agree is that when it is exclamatory it is followed by the genitive. "Teach Yourself Arabic A.S. Tritton p.61.

    Regards,
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    I know either way works, but, thinking about it more, maybe you could put the verb in front of 'kam' and/or use it in context in order to express it as an exclamatory phrase. Something like:

    I have a headache today. Ooh, how many cups (of beer or whatever) I drank last night!

    عندي صداع اليوم. شربت كم كأسا ليلة امس! ـ
    Douglas said:
    Hi there Josh,

    First we agree that adverb is ظرف and accusative is المنصوب .

    Where we do not agree is that when it is exclamatory it is followed by the genitive. "Teach Yourself Arabic A.S. Tritton p.61.

    Regards,
    Well, for what it's worth, I checked in my grammar books and could not find where kam used as an exclamatory is followed by genitive. In the Hans Wehr they explicity say that the particle can be used as an interrogatory or an exclamation and is followed by a noun in the accusative (p. 982).
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Douglas said:
    Thank you. All I am saying is that when use an exclamation as in How many glasses of water I drank! كم كاس شربت To my knowledge we use the genitive. i.e. we say Kam kassin sheribtu instead of Kam kassen sheribtu. This naturally is an exception. But an adverb is an adverb. The accusative is only its function. Because sometimes as in exclamations its function can become "genitive."

    I always learn from you but I think we should translate ظرف as adverb and not accusative.

    Regards,

    ref. Teach yourself Arabic. A. S. Tritton p.61
    كم is not a ظرف , though. :confused:

    Furthermore, I said "accusative" in my initial reply because Whodunit had asked about the grammatical function. I believe "accusative of place" puts it succinctly. "Place" implies "adverb" in most languages anyway, and if I had said "adverb" that would not have indicated how it should be inflected.
    Josh Adkins said:
    I know either way works, but, thinking about it more, maybe you could put the verb in front of 'kam' and/or use it in context in order to express it as an exclamatory phrase. Something like:

    I have a headache today. Ooh, how many cups (of beer or whatever) I drank last night!

    عندي صداع اليوم. شربت كم كأسا ليلة امس! ـ
    That would not work. You would have to start with كم .

    Just to clarify:

    I never claimed that ظرف = accusative. Indeed, I am against using the term "accusative" at all to discuss Arabic grammar. I agree with everybody that if we do want to translate it into English the best option is "adverb."

    As I said in my previoust post, I said "accusative of place" to indicate the inflection. "Adverb of place" would have been redundant, and "adverb" would have been uninformative (regarding the inflection).

    What I meant to say was this: it is a word indicating place (ظرف مكان), inflected in the so-called "accusative" (منصوب). I hope my intentions are clear now. :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    This thread has been split from the one about ظرف as a grammatical term. While there is some inevitable overlap (because some of us discussed both topics in one post), please limit your discussion here to كم and post comments about ظرف in the other thread.
     
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