مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَيَّ

[Maybe Ammar]

Hi

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْوَلِيدِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ عَنْ جَامِعِ بْنِ شَدَّادٍ عَنْ عَامِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ أَبِيهِ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلزُّبَيْرِ إِنِّى لاَ أَسْمَعُكَ تُحَدِّثُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَمَا يُحَدِّثُ فُلاَنٌ وَفُلاَنٌ قَالَ أَمَا إِنِّى لَمْ أُفَارِقْهُ وَلَكِنْ سَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَىَّ فَلْيَتَبَوَّأْ مَقْعَدَهُ مِنَ النَّارِ

Should مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَ be translated Who lies about me or WhoEVER lies about me?

 

[Ali Smith]

In MSA كَذَبَ على فلانٍ means "He lied to such and such a person." while in Classical Arabic it means "He lied about such and such a person."

I wonder how you say "He lied about such and such a person." in MSA.

 

[analeeh]

Hi

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْوَلِيدِ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ عَنْ جَامِعِ بْنِ شَدَّادٍ عَنْ عَامِرِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الزُّبَيْرِ عَنْ أَبِيهِ قَالَ قُلْتُ لِلزُّبَيْرِ إِنِّى لاَ أَسْمَعُكَ تُحَدِّثُ عَنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَمَا يُحَدِّثُ فُلاَنٌ وَفُلاَنٌ قَالَ أَمَا إِنِّى لَمْ أُفَارِقْهُ وَلَكِنْ سَمِعْتُهُ يَقُولُ مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَىَّ فَلْيَتَبَوَّأْ مَقْعَدَهُ مِنَ النَّارِ

Should مَنْ كَذَبَ عَلَ be translated Who lies about me or WhoEVER lies about me?

'He who lies' or 'whoever lies'.

I don't really detect any difference in meaning in English, and the Arabic structure can be translated both ways.

 

[Ali Smith]

Isn’t “whoever” مَهْمَنْ?

 

[Tilmeedh]

In MSA كَذَبَ على فلانٍ means "He lied to such and such a person." while in Classical Arabic it means "He lied about such and such a person."

I wonder how you say "He lied about such and such a person." in MSA.

I did a search for 'lie about' in WordReference and found this sentence:

'She lied to her parents about where she was on Friday night.'

(كذبت على والديها بشأن المكان الذي ذهبت إليه ليلة الجمعة.)

Hopefully, proficient/native speakers will chime in to confirm whether one can also say (كذب بشأن فلان) for 'to lie about someone'.

 

[Ali Smith]

So, in MSA can you say both كَذَبَهُ and كَذَبَ عليه if you want to say "He lied to him."? Or is only the latter possible?

 

[Adeejay]

Only the latter is possible.

 

[Ali Smith]

I asked a native speaker and he told me that in MSA both are possible, with no difference in meaning whatsoever:

كَذَبَهُ and كَذَبَ عَلَيْهِ 'He lied to him.'

 

[Mohammad346]

كذب على = he lied to someone.
كذب بشأن = he lied about [doing/being] something.
(بشأن = regarding)

 

[Ali Smith]

What would you say about the following then?

وَجَاءَ الْمُعَذِّرُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ لِيُؤْذَنَ لَهُمْ وَقَعَدَ الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (٩:٩٠)

Would الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ mean "Those who lied to Allah and His messenger"?

 

[Mohammad346]

I'm not really sure what كذبوا means here.

 

[Mahaodeh]

What would you say about the following then?

وَجَاءَ الْمُعَذِّرُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ لِيُؤْذَنَ لَهُمْ وَقَعَدَ الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (٩:٩٠)

Would الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ mean "Those who lied to Allah and His messenger"?

It seems that there is some disagreement among scholars regarding the exact meaning of this aya, however, the meaning of كذبوا اللهَ is not part of the disagreement (up to my knowledge) and yes, it means they lied to God.

كذب على = he lied to someone.
كذب بشأن = he lied about [doing/being] something.
(بشأن = regarding)

While كذب على is what you would mostly find, but in reality what applies to Classical Arabic applies to MSA in most cases. If you check modern dictionaries you would find that they all say that كذب فلانًا and كذب على فلان both mean he lied to.

In MSA كَذَبَ على فلانٍ means "He lied to such and such a person." while in Classical Arabic it means "He lied about such and such a person."

He lied about is not an accurate translation, the exact meaning in CA is “he claimed that he said something and it’s not true”. The meaning of “about” is too generic.

 

[Mohammad346]

If you check modern dictionaries you would find that they all say that كذب فلانًا and كذب على فلان both mean he lied to.

In my humble opinion, a language isn't really measured by the words found in its dictionaries. There can be thousands and thousands of words but maybe half of which has fallen out of use.
I also think that adding the "archaic" label to words is really important but our dictionaries seem to include literally everything from both Classical and Modern Standard without any way to distinguish which belongs to which other than exposure.
I don't think that's the most professional thing to do.

 

[Ali Smith]

وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ يُعْرَضُونَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ وَيَقُولُ الْأَشْهَادُ هَٰؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا عَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ ۚ أَلَا لَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ

Translation: And who is more unjust than he who invents a lie about Allah? Those will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied against their Lord." Unquestionably, the curse of Allah is upon the wrongdoers.

The translation is not "lied to their Lord". I think this Qur'anic verse pretty much settles the issue of what كذب على meant in classical Arabic.

 

[fdb]

What would you say about the following then?

وَجَاءَ الْمُعَذِّرُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ لِيُؤْذَنَ لَهُمْ وَقَعَدَ الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (٩:٩٠)

Would الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ mean "Those who lied to Allah and His messenger"?

yes

 

[Ali Smith]

However, Thackston (see attachment) says that the meaning of كَذَبَ فُلانًا and كَذَبَ عَلى فُلانٍ is the same: He told a lie to so-and-so.

 

[Mr. Sun]

If Thackston is talking about the classical language, then he's got it wrong, brother. What he is saying applies to the modern language only.

 

[Ali Smith]

What about the following?

وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَرَى الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ وُجُوهُهُم مُّسْوَدَّةٌ ۚ أَلَيْسَ فِي جَهَنَّمَ مَثْوًى لِّلْمُتَكَبِّرِينَ (60)
(الزمر)

And on the Day of Judgement you will see the people who lied about Allah in a state such that their faces have turned black.

 

[Mr. Sun]

I agree with your translation except “in a state such that”. Where did you get that from?

 

[Ali Smith]

Because the sentence وجوههم مسودة is a حال, and the ذو الحال is الذين.

 

[zaw]

Are you sure وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَرَى الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ وُجُوهُهُم مُّسْوَدَّةٌ doesn't mean

And on the Day of Judgement you will see the people who lied TO Allah...

 

[𐎀𐎐𐎒𐎚𐎒𐎊 𐎎𐎐𐎇𐎋𐎆]

Are you sure وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تَرَى الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا عَلَى اللَّهِ وُجُوهُهُم مُّسْوَدَّةٌ doesn't mean

And on the Day of Judgement you will see the people who lied TO Allah...

Of course not. It means lied about Allah, just like here:

فَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن كَذَبَ عَلَى اللَّهِ وَكَذَّبَ بِالصِّدْقِ إِذْ جَاءَهُ ۚ أَلَيْسَ فِي جَهَنَّمَ مَثْوًى لِّلْكَافِرِينَ
(az-Zumar, 32)