مِن الفتيات مَن لا يفطن المرء إليها على فرط حسنها

lena55313

Senior Member
Russian-Russia
Dear friends, could you kindly check my tashkeel attempt? I have some questions regarding the translation but I'd like to check the vowels first.
وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
In the previous topic there is the previous paragraph of the book.

Context:
ومن الفتيات من لا يفطن المرء إليها على فرط حسنها، لأول وهلة، ولكن صاحبتنا هذه كانت من قوة الجذب بحيث لا يسعك إلا أن تحس وجودها وتشعر بما تفيضه حولها، ولا تكاد تجلس إليها خمس دقائق حتى تلم بما فطرت عليه من جرأة الجنان الذي لا يدري أن في الدنيا ما يتقى، ومن حرارة النفس الغريرة التي لم يصدمها من التجاريب ما يطفئها، ومنٍ خفة الروح التي لا يثقلها إلحاح اللحم


My literal translation:
Among girls there is one whose extreme beauty people can't recognize at first glance

I hope very much that it is right, fingers crossed)))
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطِنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    Among girls there is one whose extreme beauty people can't recognize at first glance
    مِن الفتيات مَن doesn't refer to one girl in particular. This phrase means: there are girls (whose....)
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Hi, Cherine!
    Thank you very much for your reply.
    In the verb يَفْطُنُ you replaced tu by ti. In the Wehr's it is written that the verb has 3 variants: fatina(a), fatana and fatuna (u), all with the same meaning "to notice, to realize". Almaany gives the variant يَفْطُنُ for the verbs fatina(a), fatana and fatuna (u). But Almaany,at the same time, gives يَفْطِنُ for them. I had selected يَفْطُنُ because I've found the variant يَفْطِنُ just now. Is يَفْطُنُ a mistake here?
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Another tashkeel mistake that Cherine missed:

    وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hi, Cherine!
    Thank you very much for your reply.
    In the verb يَفْطُنُ you replaced tu by ti. In the Wehr's it is written that the verb has 3 variants: fatina(a), fatana and fatuna (u), all with the same meaning "to notice, to realize". Almaany gives the variant يَفْطُنُ for the verbs fatina(a), fatana and fatuna (u). But Almaany,at the same time, gives يَفْطِنُ for them. I had selected يَفْطُنُ because I've found the variant يَفْطِنُ just now. Is يَفْطُنُ a mistake here?
    I'm more used to the pronunciation faTina yafTin, but if all forms are correct, then all forms are correct. :) As I told you before, don't worry about the middle vowels for now as they can be learned in the dictionary; it's the final vowels that are more important from a grammatical point of view.
    Another tashkeel mistake that Cherine missed:
    وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ
    Actually I don't use this style of vowelization, I mean the one reflecting pronunciation. The preposition is min مِنْ so I always vowelize it مِنْ even when I change the sukuun to another vowel when reading.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Another question is about the phrase وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطِنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا
    وَمِنَ ..... مَنْ لا يَفْطِنُ .....إلَيْهَا
    Here we can see مِنَ as a mark of the Plural, but then we can see مَنْ that is a mark of the Single, and also إلَيْهَا and حُسْنِهَا, that also is a Single mark. Is it a common rule in MSA that وَمِنَ ..... مَنْ means plural and the phrase is translated into English in Plural, but is always written in arabic as Single?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Mine is the one I learned in school and have seen all my life. Vowelization that reflects pronunciation is something I only discovered for the first time on this forum, so I guess both ways are right. :)
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Can I repeat my question? I still don't know the answer. )))
    وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطِنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا
    Why not وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطِنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهُنَّ عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهُنَّ
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Sorry, we missed your question, Lena.

    I don't know the rule, but this is how it works in Arabic. The singular is used as a form of referring to an undetermined number of persons even if we mean more than one person. You will even find some interesting usage in the Qur'an where both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse:
    وَمِنَ النّاسِ مَنْ يَتّـخِذُ مِنْ دُونِ اللّهِ أنْدَاداً يُحِبُّونَهُمْ كَحُبّ اللّهِ (Surat 2 Al-Baqara, verse 165)
    The i3rab and explanation of the this case uses some complex terms that I'm not sure I understood 100% but here's what I understood anyway: the singular in يتخذ is used because it follows the structure and wording of min, which is the singular (حملاً على اللفظ = following the word) while the plural in يحبون is used to follow the meaning (حملاً على المعنى), i.e. the reference, which is to more than one person.

    Here we can see مِنَ as a mark of the Plural, but then we can see مَنْ that is a mark of the Single, and also إلَيْهَا and حُسْنِهَا, that also is a Single mark. Is it a common rule in MSA that وَمِنَ ..... مَنْ means plural and the phrase is translated into English in Plural, but is always written in arabic as Single?
    Yes, the word following مَن in this structure is always in the singular form (even if its adjective or following verb can shift to the plural), but as the meaning is usually more than one person, the idiomatic English equivalent uses the plural instead of the literal translation using the singular.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    One more question: وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    I can't find the word that means here "there is or there are". Logically it is the مَنْ. But the verbatim (word by word) translation would be: Among girls وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ whom مَنْ people don't recognize لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا as a super-beautiful ones عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا at first glance لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ...
    And this part of the sentence looks like unfinished. There is no verb in it.
    Is it a common rule that the construction وَمِنَ ..... مَنْ means "there are".
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I would say it is:
    وَمِن الفتيات and among girls [there are some]
    مَن whom
    لا يفطن المرء اليها one does not notice
    على فرط حسنها despite her extreme/excessive beauty
    لأول وهلة at first glance

    Basically, there are some is implied in the whole expression but not specifically mentioned. I put it in the squared brackets at the location that it would be used in English. If you want to link it with a specific word in Arabic then I would say it's مِن not مَن.

    And this part of the sentence looks like unfinished. There is no verb in it
    I'm confused! Which part, and why do all (or even any) part need a verb to be complete?
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    I'm confused! Which part, and why do all (or even any) part need a verb to be complete?
    There are some girls - it is a sentence, it has a subject and an object
    Among girls - is not a sentence, it looks as a phrase that somewhere (among girls) there is something or is happening something, but it is not named, what.
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    You can't compare English phrases with Arabic ones in this way. If you say الفتاة جميلة in Arabic it has no verb, no subject, and no object, but it's a complete sentence. In English the same sentence 'the girl beautiful' is an incomplete sentence, you need a verb to be.

    Having said that, ومن الفتيات is not a complete sentence in Arabic either. For it to be complete you need a مبتدأ or a verb, since the first is simpler I'd go for something like: هنالك من الفتيات مَن كذا to make it complete. As I said, in Arabic it's not explicitly said, you can understand it from the context.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    هنالك
    Maha, have I understood it right, that in all similar examples min something/somebody = there is/are something/somebody, where before min the هنالك is implied?
    e.g. in the sentence above:
    1. حَتَّى تُلِمَّ بِمَا فُطِرَتْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ جُرْأَةِ الْجَنَانِ =
    untill you learn حَتَّى تُلِمَّ بِ
    (that) the thing that is مَا
    natural to her فُطِرَتْ عَلَيْ
    (is) the thing هِ
    (that هنالك) among مِنْ
    braveness of soul جُرْأَةِ الْجَنَانِ
    2. هنالك مِنْ حَرَارَةِ النَّفْسِ = وَمِنْ حَرَارَةِ النَّفْسِ
    3. هنالك مِنْ خِفَّةِ الرُّوحِ = وَمِنْ خِفَّةِ الرُّوحِ
    So, Does the min something in these cases mean not a something like but there is?
     
    Last edited:

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    You shouldn't generalize like this because you will get even more confused. With the [very difficult] text you're working on, it's better to just take things case by case. Not all usages of مِن mean "there is", nor "there are", nor "something like".
    In مِن حرارة النفس ومِن خفة الروح are معطوف على the previous part:
    ما فطرت عليه من جرأة الجنان [...] ومن حرارة النفس [...] ومنٍ خفة الروح
    She had a natural/innate bold mind, hot spirit and light sould.
    من here complete the verb ما فُطِرَت عليه مِن the things she was born with. There is not direct equivalent in English or many other languages, so you just need to learn the Arabic structure as is: how it's formulated, how it works, and what it means. Don't compare it to other languages or try to come up with general rules based on one or two usages.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    من here complete the verb ما فُطِرَت عليه مِن the things she was born with.
    Oh, that's very interesting!
    Can I nevertheless look for some similarities))) Does I understand it right that ما ...... عليه مِن is a fixed construction, which is possible to use with different verbs?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Yes, but only transitive verbs:
    ما أكله من طعام the food (that) he has eaten
    ما شربه من ماء the water he drank
    ما قرأه من كُتُب the books he has read
    ما تعلّمه من دروس the lessons he has read
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Thank you, Cherine. I think, I caught this construction. Now when I see ma+min I'll remember you. :)
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    This applies to all relative pronouns اسماء موصولة, and not just ما.

    I'm also not so sure about limiting it to transitive verbs. جاء as an example is intransitive but you still can say الذي جاء من الرجال. The difference between transitive and intransitive is the personal pronoun that refers to the object.
     
    Last edited:

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    This applies to all relative pronouns اسماء موصولة, and not just ما.
    Like here? ، وَمِنْ حَرَارَةِ النَّفْسِ الْغَرِيرَةِ الَّتِي لَمْ يَصْدِمْهَا مِنْ التَّجَارِيبِ
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Salut,

    One more question: وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    I can't find the word that means here "there is or there are". Logically it is the مَنْ. But the verbatim (word by word) translation would be: Among girls وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ whom مَنْ
    I would say that the literal translation would be rather this "Among girls are..." because it is a nominal sentence.

    Here are some other examples:

    على المكتب كتاب - On the desk is a book ---> There is a book on the desk.
    أمام المسجد رجل - In front of the mosque is a man ---> There is a man in front of the mosque.

    These are nominal sentences where the predicate (khabar) is placed after the subject (mubtada') and the mubtada' is indefinite and the khabar is a shibhu jumlah.

    So for me the meaning of "there is/are" is deduced from the literal meaning/translation of this type of sentence...
     
    Last edited:

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    I would say that the literal translation would be rather this "Among girls are..." because it is a nominal sentence.
    Some days ago I found in Wright's this explanation:
    min+Definite Plural = Indefinite quantity i.e. some girls (girls - object)
    min + Indefinite = there are some girls who (girls - subject)
    According to that my new knowledge I think the literal translation would be: Men don't consider some girls as extremely beautiful.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Thank you.

    I looked at this page but did not find an example with the same structure as ومن الفتيات من... (this is a nominal sentence where the predicate (khabar) is placed after the subject (mubtada')...)
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    did not find an example with the same structure as ومن الفتيات من...
    Of course, I'm not sure, and in the Wrigt's it's not written "it should be only like this", it says "it often indicates" and "may be the subject", so probably you are right.
    But when I asked this question first time, it was the last year, one of the natives had translated me it into Russian like I translated it now, with the men as a subject and the consider as a predicate and the girls as an object. I didn't belive then)))
    Do you mean that ومن الفتيات - is a subject, and من... etc - is a predicate? But in the Wright's I couldn't find exact examples where the min+ the Definite Plural acts like a subject. If you find one, could you please give a link.
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن
    مِنَ الفتيات: is جار و مجرور related to a deleted خبر.
    مَنْ: is (اسم موصول (مبتدأ مؤخر
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    مِنَ الفتيات: is جار و مجرور related to a deleted خبر.
    How very interesting! So the full phrase would be خبر مِنَ الفتيات it looks similar to the example from the Wright's شربت من الماء
    Are they of the same structure?
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    How very interesting! So the full phrase would be خبر مِنَ الفتيات
    The إعراب of مِن الفتيات is جار و مجرور
    من : حرف جر
    الفتيات : اسم مجرور
    There is a خبر (predicate) but it was deleted and this (جار و مجرور (من الفتيات is related to it.
    The estimation of the خبر could be ,for example, the word موجود.
    شربت من الماء
    This is different.
    شربت :the verb and ت is the subject
    من: حرف جر
    الماء: اسم مجرور
    Are they of the same structure?
    The structure is (مِنَ الـ......... مَنْ + فعل) as مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن
     
    Last edited:

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Do you mean that ومن الفتيات - is a subject, and من... etc - is a predicate? But in the Wright's I couldn't find exact examples where the min+ the Definite Plural acts like a subject. If you find one, could you please give a link.
    Oh my apologies I was wrong, I wanted to say the opposite of what I wrote : "this is a nominal sentence where the predicate (khabar) is placed after before the subject (mubtada')".

    I made the same mistake in the message #26 (I am going to correct...) :

    Here are some other examples:

    على المكتب كتاب - On the desk is a book ---> There is a book on the desk.
    أمام المسجد رجل - In front of the mosque is a man ---> There is a man in front of the mosque.

    These are nominal sentences where the predicate (khabar) is placed after before the subject (mubtada') and the mubtada' is indefinite and the khabar is a shibhu jumlah.

    So for me the meaning of "there is/are" is deduced from the literal meaning/translation of this type of sentence...
    So in these examples the words كتاب and رجل are subject (mubtada') and the shibhu jumlah* "على المكتب" and "أمام المسجد" are predicate (khabar).

    Your sentence (...ومِن الفتيات مَن) has the same structure as these simple examples :
    - The shibhu jumlah "مِن الفتيات" is predicate (khabar).
    - And مَن is subject (mubtada').

    So this structure is "a shibhu jumlah* (as predicate (khabar)) + subject (mubtada')" (the verb "to be" is understood).

    * A shibhu jumlah is either "preposition + noun" (as على المكتب or مِن الفتيات) or "adverb + noun" (as أمام المسجد).

    I chose the simplest analysis where we simply say that the shibhu jumlah is predicate (khabar) but some (see for example the post of sun_shine) say that the predicate is omitted and that the shibhu jumlah is attached to this omitted predicate.

    Some call the nominal sentence like this "Equational Sentence", we can often* translate it by "x is/are y" (the verb "to be" is understood) but after we can reformulate as in the two examples I gave :

    على المكتب كتاب - On the desk is a book ---> There is a book on the desk.
    أمام المسجد رجل - In front of the mosque is a man ---> There is a man in front of the mosque.

    * this is not the case if the predicate is itself a sentence.

    But when I asked this question first time, it was the last year, one of the natives had translated me it into Russian like I translated it now, with the men as a subject and the consider as a predicate and the girls as an object. I didn't belive then)))
    The translation does not always respect the grammatical structure (it would be difficult) and precisely your sentence (وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ ) is quite difficult:

    The word الْمَرْءُ is indeed a subject but it is the subject of the verb يَفْطُنُ, the subject of a verbal sentence is called (faa'il).
    And مَن is subject (mubtada') of the nominal sentence (...مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ)...

    .
     
    Last edited:

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Dear Sun_shine and Ibn Nacer, I think you wrote things that are mutually exclusive.))) May be I'm wrong, then can you please explain yourselves.
    And مَن is subject (mubtada') of the nominal sentence (...مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ)...
    There is a خبر (predicate) but it was deleted and this (جار و مجرور (من الفتيات is related to it.
    خبر in the Wehr is translates as to experience something and perfectly fits to the structure of the verbal sentense with مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ as an object in it, while the subject is the hidden pronoun هُ
    And if the verbal sentence is خبر مِنَ الفتيات , where is the predicate for the مَنْ?
    But then Sun_shine wrote that
    مَنْ: is (اسم موصول (مبتدأ مؤخر
    As I understood these terms they mean: (the subject of the nominative sentence, which is put after the predicate) and the relative pronoun.
    The relative pronouns could be in the Nominative and the Oblique case. I think that here the relative pronoun مَنْ is in the Oblique case and connects two parts of the verbal sentence where all the structure وَمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ serves as an object.
    Men consider those whom مَنْ he (hidden pronoun هُ) , experienced خبر amon girls مِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ as...etc

    I doubted if the مَنْ ever could be in the Oblique case in Arabic, but I found something in the Wright's: (vol.2, p.323, article 175(b)
    "If the عآئد be an objective complement in the accusative, it is appended as a suffix to the verb عرفتُ من عرفتَه I knew (the person) whom you knew.
    In my case we also can see the appended suffix. It is appended not to the verb directly because it's a phrasal verb فَطِنَ إلىز. Here it is
    َمِنَ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطَنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا
    Of course, I could be wrong, but Maha also translated the مَنْ as a whom, not as a who, above
    I would say it is:
    وَمِن الفتيات and among girls [there are some]
    مَن whom
    لا يفطن المرء اليها one does not notice
    على فرط حسنها despite her extreme/excessive beauty
    لأول وهلة at first glance
     
    Last edited:

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Salut,
    Dear Sun_shine and Ibn Nacer, I think you wrote things that are mutually exclusive.))) May be I'm wrong, then can you please explain yourselves.
    I will try to explain (but be indulgent because my level in English is low)...

    First of all I remind you one of my remarks :

    I chose the simplest analysis where we simply say that the shibhu jumlah is predicate (khabar) but some (see for example the post of @sun_shine) say that the predicate is omitted and that the shibhu jumlah is attached to this omitted predicate.
    This is the main difference between sun_shine's analysis and mine.

    It's just a difference in the grammatical analysis, it's a technical point, you can study this point but for the moment I wanted to give a simple grammatical explanation because the goal is mainly to understand the sentence.

    This difference in grammatical analysis does not change the meaning, so I chose the analysis that is the simplest...

    خبر in the Wehr is translates as to experience something and perfectly fits to the structure of the verbal sentense with مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ as an object in it, while the subject is the hidden pronoun هُ

    And if the verbal sentence is خبر مِنَ الفتيات , where is the predicate for the مَنْ?
    I think you misunderstood the analysis of sun_shine...

    1- This is not the verb خَبَرَ but the word خَبَرٌ (news, information...).

    2- It is a technical term of grammar that is translated by predicate or attribute or... So you have to look at the technical definition of this term in grammar even if there is a link with the linguistic meaning (news, information...) : this is the part of the nominal sentence which gives information about the subject...

    This word designates a grammatical function, so it is not this word that is omitted (as you seem to have understood). When sun_shine says that the kabar is deleted, she means that the word that has the grammatical function of khabar is deleted.

    And when she said "The estimation of the خبر could be, for example, the word موجود." She means that this word that has been deleted (omitted) and has the function of khabar could be the word موجود ...

    This analysis is not the simplest to understand that's why I have not chosen for now ...

    3- The nominal sentence is composed of two essential elements : the subject (mubtada') and the predicate (khabar), the noun Khabarun not the verb khabara...

    I quote what I wrote on the simple nominal sentence :

    I chose the simplest analysis where we simply say that the shibhu jumlah is predicate (khabar) but some (see for example the post of @sun_shine) say that the predicate is omitted and that the shibhu jumlah is attached to this omitted predicate.

    Some call the nominal sentence like this "Equational Sentence", we can often* translate it by "x is/are y" (the verb "to be" is understood) but after we can reformulate as in the two examples I gave :

    على المكتب كتاب - On the desk is a book ---> There is a book on the desk.
    أمام المسجد رجل - In front of the mosque is a man ---> There is a man in front of the mosque.

    * this is not the case if the predicate is itself a sentence.
    مَنْ: is (اسم موصول (مبتدأ مؤخر
    As I understood these terms they mean: (the subject of the nominative sentence, which is put after the predicate) and the relative pronoun.
    Here is what I understand:

    - The word مَنْ is a relative pronoun (اسم موصول).
    - It is the subject (مبتدأ) of the nominal sentence.
    - The word مؤخر is to indicate what you said (the subject (mubtada') is placed after the predicate (khabar)).

    I also said that the word مَنْ was the subject (mubtada'), there is no difference between our analyzes on this point :

    Your sentence (...ومِن الفتيات مَن) has the same structure as these simple examples :

    - The shibhu jumlah "مِن الفتيات" is predicate (khabar).
    - And مَن is subject (mubtada').

    So this structure is "a shibhu jumlah* (as predicate (khabar)) + subject (mubtada')" (the verb "to be" is understood).
    The difference with the analysis of sun_shine is on this part:

    مِنَ الفتيات: is جار و مجرور related to a deleted خبر.
    As I said, I chose the simplest analysis where we simply say that the shibhu jumlah* (مِنَ الفتيات) is predicate (khabar) but some like @sun_shine say that the predicate is omitted and that the shibhu jumlah is attached to this omitted predicate.

    sun_shine said "related to a deleted خبر" and I said "attached to this omitted predicate" but it's the same meaning...

    And she said "جار و مجرور" and I said "shibhu jumlah" ---> "جار و مجرور" means "preposition + noun in genitive case" and "shibhu jumlah" is either "preposition + noun in genitive case" (as على المكتب or مِن الفتيات) or "adverb + noun in genitive case" (as أمام المسجد).

    So there is not a big difference...
     
    Last edited:

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    I think you misunderstood the analysis of sun_shine...

    1- This is not the verb خَبَرَ but the word خَبَرٌ (news, information...).

    2- It is a technical term of grammar that is translated by predicate or attribute or... So you have to look at the technical definition of this term in grammar even if there is a link with the linguistic meaning (news, information...) : this is the part of the nominal sentence which gives information about the subject...
    Thank you so much, Ibn Nacer!
    Yes, my misunderstanding started from that very point.
    Now, I think everything became clear, but I'm not sure, and I'll rewrite the sentence, as I understood its structure, to check it once more.
    لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    There we have a subject, a predicate and an object. The object is in the form of a nominative sentence and has its own subject مَنْ and a predicate مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ and looks like an Idafa with the preposition مِنْ
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Now, I think everything became clear, but I'm not sure, and I'll rewrite the sentence, as I understood its structure, to check it once more.
    لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    There we have a subject, a predicate and an object. The object is in the form of a nominative sentence and has its own subject مَنْ and a predicate مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ and looks like an Idafa with the preposition مِنْ
    The problem in this rewrite is that the verb يَفْطُنُ is found with two objects: a direct object (مَنْ) and an indirect object (the pronoun هَا in إلَيْهَا)...

    I do not know if it is possible to rewrite the sentence, keeping all the words of the original sentence but to get an idea of the meaning maybe we could rewrite like this : ... لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَى بعض الفتيات

    But we lose the structure of the original sentence...
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    The problem in this rewrite is that the verb يَفْطُنُ is found with two objects: a direct object (مَنْ) and an indirect object (the pronoun هَا in إلَيْهَا)...
    But may be here the another rule acts which I mentioned above:
    in the Wright's: (vol.2, p.323, article 175(b)
    "If the عآئد be an objective complement in the accusative, it is appended as a suffix to the verb عرفتُ من عرفتَه I knew (the person) whom you knew.
    In my case we also can see the appended suffix. It is appended not to the verb directly because it's a phrasal verb فَطِنَ إلىز.
    And the هَا is a repetition of the Accusative مَنْ ?
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    ...مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن
    rephrasing the sentences with the omitted predicate : مَنْ لا يفطن ... موجودٌ مِنَ الفتيات
    مَنْ: mubtadaa
    لا يفطن: صلة الموصول لا محل لها من الإعراب
    (موجودٌ(مثلًا: khabar (predicate) (but here it's omitted)
    مِنَ الفتيات : جار و مجرور
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    rephrasing the sentences with the omitted predicate : مَنْ لا يفطن ... موجودٌ مِنَ الفتيات
    Sorry Sun_shine, but I think that I couldn't understand what you ment. Can you kindly make the tashkeel for the يفطن and fill the gap (...) in the sentence.
    لا يفطن: صلة الموصول لا محل لها من الإعراب
    Here I also didin't understand what you ment. As I read in Wiki صلة الموصول - is the sentence that takes place after the relative pronoun. وتسمى الجمل التي تقع بعد الاسم الموصول جملة صلة الموصول But in my case the sentence that takes place after the relative pronoun is مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ where مَنْ is a relative pronoun i.e. الاسم الموصول.
    Maybe I'm wrong in terms, because I translated all these terms using the dictionary.

    Anyway, what can you say about my variant of the sentence? Is it possible to dubble the object in it?
    لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ
    I marked the part of the sentence, which I presumed to be an object, with blue. And I made here a repetition of the object it using هَا assuming that it acts under the rule:
    "If the عآئد be an objective complement in the accusative, it is appended as a suffix to the verb عرفتُ من عرفتَه I knew (the person) whom you knew.
     

    analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Apologies if the mass of debates over specific tashkil have made me miss someone already explaining this, but for what it's worth I'll give it a go in less technical terminology:

    وَمِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ مَنْ لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ

    من لا يفطن المرء إليها - literally '[she] who the person does not notice'

    This is structurally singular and in another context could be translated as singular. But in Arabic the singular is often used to indicate generic classes and this is what is happening here, so it should be understood as equivalent to 'those who the person (= who one) does not notice'.

    The rest of this clause (على فرط حسنها 'in spite of her [their] beauty' and لأول وهلة 'on first glance') extends it fairly clearly and normally.

    من الفتيات should be understood as 'among women, among girls'. As with locational phrases in general in Arabic it can be combined with a noun, clause etc in a way that requires a 'there is/are' in English but which in Arabic does not:

    في الكتاب الجديد قصص جميلة
    There are nice stories in the new book

    This logic can be extended straightforwardly to this sentence:

    Among women there are those who a person [one] does not notice at first glance despite their great beauty.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    And the هَا is a repetition of the Accusative مَنْ ?
    The problem does not concern the عآئد, the problem concerns the meaning and syntax of the verb فطن.

    This verb (with the meaning "to notice ") takes only an indirect object (it gouvene its object via the preposition إلى or the preposition al-laam or al-baa' : فطن إلى الأمر / فطن بالأمر / فطن للأمر).

    In your sentence (لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ), this indirect object is the pronoun هَا in إلَيْهَا. So the relative pronoun مَنْ can not be a object of the verb يَفْطُنُ, what would be the meaning?

    PS: This is not the word موبود but the word موجود...
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    Sorry Sun_shine, but I think that I couldn't understand what you ment. Can you kindly make the tashkeel for the يفطن and fill the gap (...) in the sentence.
    Your sentence is مِنَ الفتياتِ مَنْ لا يفطنُ المرء إليها
    مِن is a preposition and الفتياتِ is اسم مجرور (related to an omitted khabar)
    مَنْ is a relative pronoun (mubtadaa)
    لا :نافية
    يفطنُ: a verb
    المرء: the subject
    إليها: a preposition and a pronoun (إلى+ها)
    The nominal sentence consists of mubtadaa and khabar. The relative pronoun is the mubtadaa then where is the khabar?
    The khabar is omitted and we can imagine it was the word موجودٌ .
    The sentence was موجودٌ مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن المرء إليها
    موجود: خبر and مَنْ: مبتدأ

    Here I also didin't understand what you ment. As I read in Wiki صلة الموصول - is the sentence that takes place after the relative pronoun. وتسمى الجمل التي تقع بعد الاسم الموصول جملة صلة الموصول But in my case the sentence that takes place after the relative pronoun is مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ where مَنْ is a relative pronoun i.e. الاسم الموصول.
    Maybe I'm wrong in terms, because I translated all these terms using the dictionary.
    your sentence (لا يَفْطُنُ الْمَرْءُ مَنْ مَوْبُودٌ مِنْ الْفَتَيَاتِ إلَيْهَا عَلَى فَرْطِ حُسْنِهَا، لأوَّلِ وَهْلَةٍ) is not correct.
    for جملة صلة الموصول (The relative clause):
    The sentence after the relative pronoun is called جملة صلة الموصول . In this sentence مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن المرء إليها the relative pronoun is مَنْ and the sentence after it is يفطن المرء and it is جملة صلة الموصول(relative clause)
    e.g. َقَابَلْتُ الطَالِبَ الّذي يَدْرُسُ اللغَةَ العَرَبِيَّة ( I met the student who studies Arabic. )
    The relative pronoun here is الذي
    The relative clause is (يدرسُ (جملة صلة الموصول
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    This verb (with the meaning "to notice ") takes only an indirect object (it gouvene its object via the preposition إلى
    Yes, you're right. Thank you!
    The sentence was موجودٌ مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن المرء إليها
    Thank you, Sun_shine. Now I understood what you ment.
    But I still have questions.
    In this sentence مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ لا يفطن المرء إليها the relative pronoun is مَنْ and the sentence after it is يفطن المرء and it is جملة صلة الموصول(relative clause)
    e.g. َقَابَلْتُ الطَالِبَ الّذي يَدْرُسُ اللغَةَ العَرَبِيَّة ( I met the student who studies Arabic. )
    I think that these two sentences are different because the second sentence looks like صفة - the relative clause describes the student - where the the relative pronoun الّذي stands as a subject in the Nominative case and the عآئد which is هُ is implied into the verb يَدْرُسُ I met the student. He studies arabic.
    But the first sentence looks like صِلَةٌ where the عآئد - which is the موجودٌ or just هُنَّ is an objective complement in the Accusative, and it is repeated as a suffix in the verb لا يفطن إليها . The مَنْ is the whom, not the who.
    I'll try to rewtite the sentence once more, can you, please, check it, if it is grammatically right or not?
    مَن هن مِن الفتيات لا يفطن المرء إليها The one that is from the girls (some of the girls) is not recognizes by the man...etc The one that is from the girls - is an object. I put it into the Passive just to show that itl is an object. I really can't find the exact translation that shows the structure of the sentence, as I want to show it.
    Among women there are those who a person [one] does not notice at first glance despite their great beauty.
    For more than a year I've thought that there should be a there are but
    Some days ago I found in Wright's this explanation:
    min+Definite Plural = Indefinite quantity i.e. some girls (girls - object)
    min + Indefinite = there are some girls who (girls - subject)
    Of course, the sentence doesn't looks like the example from the grammar book, but the whole clause مِنَ الفتيات مَنْ is not a subject, it's not a There are girls, who are doing something. It is the object of the sentence. The المرء is a subject.
    And if it was a there are why it was not written مِنَ فتيات مَنْ -in the Indefinite state

    What do you think about that?
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    But I still have questions.

    I think that these two sentences are different because the second sentence looks like صفة - the relative clause describes the student - where the the relative pronoun الّذي stands as a subject in the Nominative case and the عآئد which is هُ is implied into the verb يَدْرُسُ I met the student. He studies arabic.
    But the first sentence looks like صِلَةٌ where the عآئد - which is the موجودٌ or just هُنَّ is an objective complement in the Accusative, and it is repeated as a suffix in the verb لا يفطن إليها . The مَنْ is the whom, not the who.
    Any sentence after the relative pronoun is a relative clause.
    In this sentence قَابَلْتُ الطَالِبَ الّذي يَدْرُسُ اللغَةَ العَرَبِيَّة :
    الذّي: is the adjective
    قابلت الطالب: the relative clause
    The relative pronoun takes the إعراب of الجملة الموصولة and the sentence after it is لا محل لها من الإعراب

    من هن من الفتيات لا يفطن المرء إليها : is different in meaning because it tells us that all those who are girls are not recognized by man.

    مِنَ الفتياتِ مَنْ لا يفطنُ المرء إليها (my translation) (not sure about the second part):
    Of the girls (there) are some whom man (one) fails to see /notice them.
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top