هذه الهدية من ابن التاجد

marious

New Member
German
How do you pronounce the following sentence correctly:

هذه الهدية من ابن التاجد.


Is it 1)
هذه الهدية مِنَ ابن التاجد.


or is it 2)
هذه الهدية مِنِ ابن التاجد.


I have asked many people, and some say 1 and some say 2. Can you please give me the proof for your answer.

Thank you
 
  • wriight

    Senior Member
    English (US) / Arabic (Lebanon)
    It's 1! This page explains it succinctly enough, especially with the table at the top: the usual rule is to add a sukuun, but مِنَ specifically is an exception in that it always gets a fat7a instead. When people say to use 2, it seems possible to me that (1) they're influenced by the general rule of using a kasra, and/or (2) they're influenced by the fact that, in isolation, اِبن is necessarily pronounced with a hamza + kasra at the start.
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    When people say to use 2, it seems possible to me that (1) they're influenced by the general rule of using a kasra, and/or (2) they're influenced by the fact that, in isolation, اِبن is necessarily pronounced with a hamza + kasra at the start.
    Both quite possible. There is a third possibility, they may be influenced by their dialect and they give the answer not based some knowledge of Classical Arabic that they have, but because they try it out in their mouth and their dialect may favor a kasra over a fat7a.
     

    marious

    New Member
    German
    Thank you for your reply.
    So the grammar texts which my arabic teacher showed me to show that it must be fatha they all refer to samples where (من) is followed by a word starting with (الـ-التعريف).
    What is not clear from the text: does the rule refer only to these kind of words or to any saakin regardless of Al-ta3reef. It seems there are different interpretations?

    I just asked someone who is a true master in Fusha and he says:

    حركة النون من حرف الجر من هي السكون وتفتح إذا جاء بعدها كلمة ابتدأت بأل التعريف.
    نقول: منَ المسجد
    منْ عند الله
    أما إذا التقت بساكن غير أل التعريف فإنها تكسر فتقول
    منِ ابن آدم منِ اسم الله

    So that would mean the rule corresponds to what sun-shine is asking.

    What do you think?
     

    wriight

    Senior Member
    English (US) / Arabic (Lebanon)
    Hmm, got it, and given that I don't personally have any kind of internal compass for MSA I can't disagree. Never would've known there was an exception to the exception with من.

    For comparison, how does the word بِن behave, considering it's phonetically similar but isn't a 7arf jarr? If it occurs in a name, is بن الـ meant to be pronounced bina l- or bini l-?
     
    Last edited:

    marious

    New Member
    German
    Update: two other true masters of arabic just confirmed to me that (2) is right (kassra).

    regarding بِن ... hmm is it‘s a special version of the word ابْن which is not mabni ..
     
    Last edited:

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    how does the word بِن behave, considering it's phonetically similar but isn't a 7arf jarr? If it occurs in a name, is بن الـ meant to be pronounced bina l- or bini l-?
    بن is just a variant of ابن; the only difference is that بن can only appear between two names and is always semantically definite so it can't take تنوين. Where بن does appear, it behaves exactly as if it were ابن.

    جاء خالدُ بْنُ الوليد (xālidu 'bnu 'l-walīd)
    رأيت خالدَ بْنَ الوليد (xālida 'bna 'l-walīd)
    سلّمت على خالدِ بْنِ الوليد (xālidi 'bni 'l-walīd)

    جاء ابْنُ الملك (jāʾa 'bnu 'l-malik)
    رأيت ابْنَ الملك (raʾaytu 'bna 'l-malik)
    سلّمت على ابْنِ الملك (ʿala 'bni 'l-malik)
     

    marious

    New Member
    German
    Right!
    The word بن with kasra on ب as in “bin laden” is apparently not Fusha as I just realized :)
     
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