هل من - ليس من

Anomander

New Member
English - United States
اهلا وسهلا

I was recently looking at the first section of Cantarino's Syntax of Modern Arabic Prose, and I wanted to ask if you've run across what he mentions.

In Section 2 of the first volume, he talks about "The Nominal Sentence With a Single Member," meaning a sentence that (pretty much) only has one noun phrase. He gives the examples,

"حادثة؟" = Is there a case? (Just a noun = that noun exists)
"هل مِن حاجة إلى الشرح؟" = Is there any need for an explanation? (من + a noun = that noun exists)

It sounds like when a sentence has a single noun phrase "X", it means "There is X." I've always heard of this meaning being communicated with هناك in MSA or other words in the dialects. Have you all run into sentences that consist only of one noun phrase? I'm having trouble finding other sources to back up Cantarino's interpretation.

شكرا جزيلا
 
  • elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    The second construction (هل من = "is there a") is very common and natural. The first example seems odd; like you, I would use something like هناك to indicate "there is."
     

    Anomander

    New Member
    English - United States
    Thanks! Would you also use من for a declarative sentence? For example, would you say "مِن حاجة إلى الشرح" for "There is a need for an explanation."? Or would it only go with هل to form a question?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Would you also use من for a declarative sentence? For example, would you say "مِن حاجة إلى الشرح" for "There is a need for an explanation."?
    No.
    Or would it only go with هل to form a question?
    Not only. It can also be used with ليس:

    ليس من صديق يعينني = There is no friend to help me.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    If we change the masculine صديق into the feminine صديقة would the verb ليس remain unchanged and masculine?
     

    sun_shine 331995

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    Why I can't change it to ليست ?
    I think both are grammatically correct.
    would it only go with هل to form a question?
    Not only. It can also be used with ليس:
    ليس من صديق يعينني = There is no friend to help me.
    هل من حاجة إلى الشرح؟
    مِن here is حرف جر زائد and it sometimes comes with هل.
    with ليس I see ( بـ) as حرف جر زائد, I suppose that مِن can be حرف جر زائد with ليس too.
     
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    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Why I can't change it to ليست ?
    I think both are grammatically correct.
    ليست من صديقة تعينني sounds wrong to me.
    with ليس I see ( بـ) as حرف جر زائد
    Do you mean you would say ليس بصديق يعينني? To me, that has a different meaning:

    ليس من صديق يعينني: There is no friend to help me.
    ليس بصديق يعينني: He is not a friend who helps me.
    I suppose that مِن can be حرف جر زائد with ليس too.
    It definitely can.
     

    sun_shine 331995

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    ليست من صديقة تعينني sounds wrong to me.
    Yes, It seems strange but even if the sentence seems strange that doesn't mean it's wrong.
    e.g. we say طلعت الشمس (seems fine and correct)
    What about طلع الشمس? (It sounds strange but it's correct).
    Do you mean you would say ليس بصديق يعينني? To me, that has a different meaning:
    ليس من صديق يعينني: There is no friend to help me.
    ليس بصديق يعينني: He is not a friend who helps me.
    No, I didn't mean to replace مِن with بـ .(The meaning is different)
    I mean that I always see ليس with بـ as حرف جر زائد . I didn't see it with مِن but I suppose مِن could be used with ليس as حرف جر زائد.
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    ليست من صديقة تعينني sounds wrong to me.
    I think it has to do with CA vs MSA. It's not very common in MSA so it sounds weird to us, but it's correct in CA and hence it's technically correct in MSA even if we are not used to it.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    I did not know that kind of sentence...

    - I thought there must be a sentence after the particle هل... But it seems to me that مِن حاجة إلى الشرح is not a sentence, no?

    - And in this sentence "ليس من صديق يعينني", where are the ismu layssa and the khabar layssa ?

    If the part من صديق يعينني is khabar layssa then what about the ismu layssa ? Is it the subject pronoun contained in the verb layssa ? But does this analysis correspond to the meaning "There is no friend to help me" ?

    What do you think ?
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    - I thought there must be a sentence after the particle هل... But it seems to me that مِن حاجة إلى الشرح is not a sentence, no?
    There is an omitted word, omitted because it's understood from the context, it's assumed to be هناك and the complete sentence would be: هل هناك من حاجة إلى الشرح؟
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    There is an omitted word, omitted because it's understood from the context, it's assumed to be هناك and the complete sentence would be: هل هناك من حاجة إلى الشرح؟
    Thank you.
    - This seems strange to me because if the word هناك is khabar then where is the mubtada' ?

    Without the preposion min (هل هناك حاجة إلى الشرح؟) I would say that the word هناك is khabar and that the word حاجة is mubtada' ...

    - Is it the same answer for the sentence ليس من صديق يعينني ? The word هناك is omitted (ليس هناك من صديق يعينني) ?

    Merci.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    - Is it the same answer for the sentence ليس من نصديق يعينني ? The word هناك is omitted (ليس هناك من صديق يعينني) ?
    It seems that instead of هناك there could be something like مَنْ . The person who is from my friends is not the person who helps me.
    Is it possible to say like this?
     
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    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    It seems that instead of هناك there could be something like مَنْ .
    I think that in these sentences it is the prepostion مِنْ and not the relative pronoun مَنْ... But maybe I'm wrong because I do not know this type of sentence, these sentences seem strange to me...

    On the other hand this sentence ليس هناك صديق يعينني sounds better for me.
    But maybe the preposition "min" is there for emphasis or ???
     
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    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    I think that in these sentences it is the prepostion مِنْ and not the relative pronoun مَنْ.
    Sorry, I didn't write the whole sentence. I ment ليس مَن هو مِن نصديق يعينني
    But now I see I was wrong. مَن can't be instead of هناك I wonder can it be ليس هناك مَن هو مِن نصديق يعينني with omitted هناك مَن هو?
     

    sun_shine 331995

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    ليست من صديقة تعينني sounds wrong to me.
    Seems you are right.:thumbsup:
    It will be ليس not ليست ,here.
    I don’t know why , I thought it could be both(ليس من صديقة تعينني or ليست من صديقة تعينني).

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    -In general, ليس / ليست depends on اسم ليس
    -If اسم ليس is feminine(مؤنث حقيقي) then it’s ليست . If it’s masculine then ليس.
    -If اسم ليس is an omitted pronoun refers to a feminine (مؤنث حقيقي أو غير حقيقي) then ليست.
    -If there are words between ليس and اسمها orاسم ليس is مؤنث غير حقيقي or جمع تكسير then both ليس/ليست are correct.

    In ليس من صديقة تعينني: اسم ليس is صديقة but it’s ليس not ليست
    The explanation was (could be wrong):
    .لأن دخول (من الزائدة) على اسم ليس جعل النفي منصبًّا على الجنس لا على اللفظ
    In this sentence:ليس هناك من صديق يعينني
    صديق: اسم ليس
    هناك:خبر ليس
    يعينني: نعت جملة

    And hereليس من صديق يعينني:
    صديق: اسم ليس
    يعينني: خبر ليس
    I don’t know the reason that يعينني is خبر ليس , it could be that:
    The sentence is الصديق يعينني andليس is added.
    ليس الصديق يعينني and because من الزائدة can only precede the indefinite nouns then we deleted the (الـ) and it became ليس من صديق يعينني.
    (طالما يستقيم المعنى بدون تقدير فعدم التقدير أولى)
     
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