وثانيهما — أي ثاني الحمارين

lena55313

Senior Member
Russian-Russia
Hi, can I ask about the declention of numerals?
There is a sentence وَثَانِيُهُمَا — أَيٌّ ثَانِيُ الْحِمَارَيْنِ — يَخْطُو وَادِعًا
I put the tashkeel myself and I'm not sure of vowels.
My guess:
1. The ثَانِيُهُمَا comes from the Ordinal Number ثانٍ. When the Inseparable pronoun is added, it loses its noon-ending, and changes into ثانِيُ + هما with a damma.
2. أَيٌّ ثَانِيَ الْحِمَارَيْنِ is a Nominative sentence, where the أَيٌّ is a subject and the Idafa ثَانِيَ الْحِمَارَيْنِ is the predicate. The ثانٍ loses its noon-ending in the Idafa construction and comes into ثانِيُ + الْحِمَارَيْنِ, also with a damma.

I'm not sure because some people tell me that it comes to ثَانِيهِمَا with a long vowel ee and hima in all cases. But this web-site tells that it comes into ثانِيُ + هما
But it also says that in the Genitive it comes ثَانِيِهِمَا , but i think it would be ثَانِيَهُمَا with fatha, both in the Accusative and the Genitive.
So, I'm sure of nothing at all and asking to dispel my doubts.
Thank you in advance.
 
  • Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    1. What is the waaw in وثانيهما here? What comes before this sentence? The waaw would affect whether it's ثانيُهما or ثانيَهما. I doubt it is ثانيِهِما because it seems to me that it's unlikely that the waaw is واو القسم أو واو ربّ. It seems to me that the waaw is either واو الاستئناف in which case it would be nominative because it's مبتدأ or that the waaw is واو المعية in which case it would be accusative because it's مفعول معه.

    2. The أيْ here is ساكنة لا محل لها من الإعراب because it's أي التفسيرية. The point of it is to explain 'second of what?' The tashkeel of ثاني would depend on the tasheekl of the first word because it's a badal.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    What comes before this sentence?
    It was a long sentence from this thread . The first donkey was disobedient, but the another one...etc
    2. The أيْ here is ساكنة لا محل لها من الإعراب because it's أي التفسيرية. The point of it is to explain 'second of what?' The tashkeel of ثاني would depend on the tasheekl of the first word because it's a badal.
    Great! A new word أيْ came into my dictionaty. I thought before that they were same. Thank you, Maha and nice to see you again.
    How do you think, is it possible to have here the أَيٌّ as a conjunctive pronoun? It's mentioned that it can act like a conjunctive pronoun,with the meaning of "he who" (Wright v.1, p.270, article 346) but I didn't find any examples of this applying.
    And another question: does the أيْ change the case of the following nouns or the mood of the following verbs, or it changes nothing?
    And one more question: how to pronounce أَيٌّ - Eyun or Ey? and أيْ - Ey or simple E?
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    I see it و ثانِيهما
    Because ثاني is اسم منقوص , in the accusative state there is fatha on the يـ but if it’s
    مرفوع أو مجرور there is no harakat on the يـ
    و ثانِي الحمارين (without any harakat on يـ)
    How do you think, is it possible to have here the أَيٌّ as a conjunctive pronoun?
    Can't be used here.

    It's mentioned that it can act like a conjunctive pronoun,with the meaning of "he who" (Wright v.1, p.270, article 346) but I didn't find any examples of this applying.
    أيُّ طالبٍ يذاكرْ ينجحْ
    And another question: does the أيْ change the case of the following nouns or the mood of the following verbs, or it changes nothing?
    And one more question: how to pronounce أَيٌّ - Eyun or Ey? and أيْ - Ey or simple E?
    أيْ and أيّ

    أيْ: Ay
    أيْ (the vocative case): it equals يا :
    أيْ زيد = يا زيد
    أيْ التفسيرية in this sentence أيْ ثاني الحمارين

    أيّ : Ayyu / Ayyi / Ayya according to its position (إعراب) and the noun after it is مضاف إليه.
    أيّ- with shadda(اسم معرب) can be mubtadaa , predicate , object ,…… .
    أيّ- could be a question word أيَّ كتابٍ قرأت؟ Which book did you read?
    -It could be شرطية (conditional) as in أيُّ تلميذٍ يذاكرْ ينجحْ
    -As a relative noun قررت بأيِّ موضوع سأبدأ (I decided by which subject I will start).
    There is أيَّة Ayyat(u) / Ayyat(a) / Ayyat(i) and it’s the feminine of أيّ . It’s used with the feminine nouns and أيّ is used too (for both masculine and feminine) (أيّ is the most common)

    In النداء(the vocative case): أيُّها for masculine / أيَّتُها for feminine
    أيُّها الطالب / أيَّتُها الطالبة (here the harakat doesn’t change because it’s مبنيّة) (Ayyuha , Ayyatuha)
    -Here after أيُّها or أيَّتُها the إعراب could be بدل or نعت according to this noun:
    If it’s مُشْتَقّ as the active participle or past participle,….. the إعراب will be نعت مرفوع (adjective).
    If the noun is جامد (not مشتق) then the إعراب will be بدل مرفوع

    There is also إيْ (iy) which means (yes)

    (That's what I remember now)
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    if it’s مرفوع أو مجرور there is no harakat on the يـ
    و ثانِي الحمارين (without any harakat on يـ)
    sorry, I meant there is sukun يـْ (not يـُ nor يـِ )
    : ثانِيْهِما or ثانِيْهُما (both are correct).
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    sorry, I meant there is sukun يـْ (not يـُ nor يـِ )
    : ثانِيْهِما or ثانِيْهُما (both are correct).
    Thank you, Sun_shine for your reply. Can I start with the haraka of the تانٍ ?
    You said that the sukun should be applied. But why, can you please explain?
    Firstly, let's leave the waw and apply the harakat to the ثانيهما without any و in all three cases.
    Let me explain my thoughts about my way of putting harakat onto the masculine ثانٍ . If I wrong, can you correct me, please.
    1. ثانٍ is a فاعل from the verb ثَنَى and normally (according to the formula) it would have been ثَانِىٌ or ثَانِىٍ for تانٍ (Wright, v.1, p. 90, article 167-b)
    2. In the Nominative case and the Genitive case: تانٍ. In the Accusative case تانًا (Wright's v.1, p.246, article 311)
    3. When the تانٍ turns into a derived form it recieve its ي back, for example if the word becomes dual. (Wright, v.1., p 189, article 299, rem.d) So, now we have the same ثَانِىٌ in the Nominative as in the point № 1 above.
    4. Undefined nouns become defined by adding a pronominal suffix. (Wright, v.1., p 247, article 313)
    5. Words that consist of 3 consonants lose their tanweens (Wright, v.1., p 251, article 316). So the ثَانِىٌ becomes ثَانِيُ , if we add to it هُما , and turns into the ثانِيُهُما

    That is why I think that it couldn't be a ثانِيْهِما or ثانِيْهُما
    If I'm wrong in my conclusion, can you please show me the point from which my reasoning went in wrong direction? Or show me your way of reasoning, how you came to the ثانِيْهِما with sukun.
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    1. ثانٍ is a فاعل from the verb ثَنَى :tick:
    (but here ثاني is an Ordinal Number)
    and normally (according to the formula) it would have been ثَانِىٌ or ثَانِىٍ for تانٍ
    No, it's ثانِي (in the Nominative and the Genitive case) or ثانِيَ (In the Accusative case)
    2. In the Nominative case and the Genitive case: ثانٍ. :tick:
    In the Accusative case تانًا
    It's ثانيًا
    3. When the ثانٍ turns into a derived form it recieve its ي back, for example if the word becomes dual. :tick:
    So, now we have the same ثَانِىٌ in the Nominative as in the point № 1 above.
    No,
    in Dual: ثانِيَان /ثانِيَيْن
    4. Undefined nouns become defined by adding a pronominal suffix. :tick:
    5. Words that consist of 3 consonants lose their tanweens . So the ثَانِىٌ becomes ثَانِيُ
    Can you explain what this means?
    ــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ

    This is called الاسم المنقوص Ism manquus (The Defective Noun) : A noun that has ي at the end and before it there is a kasra.

    e.g. ..., القاضي , النادي , المحامي

    1- If this noun is definite or in Idaafa state ,then ي is preserved:
    القاضي , النادي , قاضي المحكمة , نادي المدينة

    -In the Nominative case and the Genitive case: القاضِي, النادِي no kasra nor damma ,the haraka is estimated.
    جاء القاضِي , جاء قاضِي المحكمة
    لعبتُ في النادِي , لعبتُ في نادِي المدينة

    -In the accusative case :القاضِيَ , النادِيَ ,the haraka (fatha) is visible.
    رأيتُ القاضِيَ , رأيتُ قاضِيَ المدينةِ


    2- Without الـ or Idaafa:

    -In the Nominative case and the Genitive case ي is omitted and we put tanween instead: قاضٍ, نادٍ
    جاء قاضٍ , لعبتُ في نادٍ

    - In the accusative case ي is preserved: قاضِيًا
    رأيتُ قاضِيًا

    ــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ

    -In the Sound Masculine Plural: the ي is omitted and we add ين or ون
    المحامي becomes المحامُون/المحامِين

    -In the Dual the ي is preserved and we add ان orين :
    المحامِيَان/المحامِيَيْن

    -In the Sound Feminine Plural ي is preserved and we add ات :
    المحامِيَات
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    Thank yooooou!!! Sun_shine.
    (but here ثاني is an Ordinal Number)
    Making my reasoning I forgot to open the page with the numerals in the Grammar book ))) where it is written that in the construct state ثانٍ turns to ثانِى without any tanwin (the ending with short -n).
    But I really can't understand how it happens. Probably, because the -in ending conceals under the short -i the long ي , and when the noun loses the -n, the short -i turns into the long ي
    ِBut anyway, the web-site with the tashkil-making gives wrong advice, I will not use it further any more.


    Well, another question)))
    أيُّ طالبٍ يذاكرْ ينجحْ
    Google translated as: Any nerd succeeds :D Is it really the meaning?
    Can it be changed into the construction with مَن? As أيُّ طالبٍ مَن يذاكرُ ينجحُ
    Why did you put sukun? Am I wrong to put dumma? Are these the verbs?
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    Thank yooooou!!! Sun_shine.
    You're welcome.:):)
    Google translated as: Any nerd succeeds :D Is it really the meaning?
    Of course not.:D :D
    أيُّ: any
    طالب :student
    يذاكر :study
    ينجح :succeed
    (Any student studies, succeeds.)

    Can it be changed into the construction with مَن? As أيُّ طالبٍ مَن يذاكرُ ينجحُ
    It will be: مَنْ يذاكرْ ينجحْ (Who studies, succeeds)
    Why did you put sukun? Am I wrong to put dumma? Are these the verbs?
    Because both verbs are in the jussive case.
    ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ
    This is called the Conditional sentence and it’s a separate grammarian rule.
    I’ll mention some point:

    The conditional sentences الجمل الشرطية consist of :
    1-The conditional article
    2-The conditional verb (in present or past)
    3-The answer of the condition (verb in present or past)
    ـــــــــــ
    -The article can be declinable (أيّ) or indeclinable.
    -Every article has its meaning.

    -The articles divided into two groups:
    A- Articles change the present verb into the jussive case (jazm)فعل مضارع مجزوم
    B-Articles don’t change the case of the present verb.

    In our sentence أيُّ طالبٍ يذاكِرْ ينجحْ (a simple sentence):
    -The conditional article:أيُّ (change the two verbs into the jussive case (sukun))
    -The conditional verb: يذاكرْ
    -The answer of the condition: ينجحْ

    You can use مَنْ ) مَنْ is a conditional article here and it converts the verb into jussive case (sukun)) but notice that مَنْ will be added instead of أيُّ طالبٍ
    مَنْ يذاكرْ ينجحْ (Who studies ,succeeds .)
     
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    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    أيُّ: any
    You gave the example of the conditional, but can you give the example, where أيُّ acts like a simple relative "who"? Is it possible to say: الطالبُ أيٌ يظلُ يكتبُ الدرسَ الآن مجتهدٌ I meant to say: The student which (who) is writing now his lesson is hard-working (always, usually). Does the أيٌ turn the Imperfect verb into the Jussive if it is a simple who, which, that, etc?
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    can you give the example, where أيُّ acts like a simple relative "who"?
    -As a relative noun قررت بأيِّ موضوع سأبدأ (I decided by which subject I will start).
    Is it possible to say: الطالبُ أيٌ يظلُ يكتبُ الدرسَ الآن مجتهدٌ
    أيّ is followed by a noun (or attached to a pronoun) : أيُّ طالبٍ
    Does the أيٌ turn the Imperfect verb into the Jussive if it is a simple who, which, that, etc?
    It turns the Imperfect verb into the Jussive in the Conditional sentence.
     

    lena55313

    Senior Member
    Russian-Russia
    أيّ is followed by a noun (or attached to a pronoun) : أيُّ طالبٍ
    It seems that not always. Look, what I've found right now (Wright, v.2, p 316, article 171):
    If the أيّ is a part of a subject in a Nominal sentence it may be put alone in the Accusative or Genitive after the verb (if we add all this clause to a verb) and a vacant place of the subject in the nominal clause is taken by the pronoun of the third person.
    ٌعرفتُ أيًّا هو طالبٌ مجبهد in this case أيًّا is a relative pronoun, but in the case of ٌعرفتُ أيُّهمْ طالبٌ مجبهد it is an interrogative pronoun.
    I think that all two sentences could be translated as: I know who of them is a hard-working student.
    But one thing I've learned tnat there is no need to use the أيّ as a relative pronoun when we have a good and unequivocal word مَن :)
     
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