せっかくの も

Kenshiromusou

Senior Member
Portuguese — Brazil
Yo, friends. Reading a manga, I remembered a old question.
I came across the following phrase:
せっかくの鎧もきるものがおまえでは役立たない

I don't know if there is some pattern せっかくーものが, but this では looks that あなたではできない (when particle limits capacity).
Well, assuming that there is not a せっかくーものが pattern, what does phrase say?

To wear this so expected protection also is useless for you/ this protection [with you using it] is useless?
Thank you very much in advance?
 
  • Cowrie

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Yo Kenshiro,
    せっかくの鎧もきるものがおまえでは役立たない
    Your sentence should be segmented as follows:
    せっかくの鎧も/きるものがおまえでは/役立たない

    I think せっかくのNも [condition]では[phrase meaning "meaningless"] can be called "a pattern".
    せっかくの能力も使わないのでは無いのと同じである
    せっかくの金もしまい込んだままでは持ち腐れである
    The rare/valuable quality of N will be meaningless under the condition(s).

    せっかくの鎧も even a/the/this valuable armor
    (それを)着るものがおまえでは if worn by you (if the one who wears it is you)
    役立たない will/would be useless
     

    SoLaTiDoberman

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Now I think #2 would be the correct interpretation.
    But I thought of it as:
    せっかくの鎧も切る物が、おまえでは役立たない
    =せっかく鎧も切ることができる剣であるのに、おまえではそれを使いこなせない。宝の持ち腐れである。
    =Although the sword is excellent enough to cut armors, you cannot use it effectively.
    =The sword is too excellent for you to use effectively. You're not capable enough to use it.

    I think my interpretation is also grammatically possible.

    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえでは役立たない.
    =The armor is excellent, but it could not be helpful because you're too weak.
    =Your weakness would ruin the excellence of the armor.


    The original Japanese should have written in kanji, 着る・者 or 切る・物, in order to avoid the ambiguity.
     
    Last edited:

    Flaminius

    hedomodo
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I think my interpretation is also grammatically possible.
    Ah, it's like the polysemy of "Time flies like an arrow" or the five meanings of 頭が赤い魚を食べる猫. Understanding a sentence involves a few more things than a simply syntactic parser.

    The original Japanese should have written in kanji, 着る・者 or 切る・物, in order to avoid the ambiguity.
    The OP isn't wondering about this ambiguity.

    The uselessness of せっかくの鎧 does not consist in its own defects but in those of the wearer. Perhaps this person is a coward, and not keen on fighting (= using the armour)?
     

    Kenshiromusou

    Senior Member
    Portuguese — Brazil
    My friends, thank you very much.
    My question about your answers is about this では. It looks like
    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえでは役立たない.
    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえである。だから、役立たない.
    I saw before the combination of these particles before capacity:
    おまえではできない = おまえである。たから、できない ?
    Thank you all once more.
     

    SoLaTiDoberman

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    My friends, thank you very much.
    My question about your answers is about this では. It looks like
    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえでは役立たない.
    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえである。だから、役立たない.
    I saw before the combination of these particles before capacity:
    おまえではできない = おまえである。たから、できない ?
    Thank you all once more.
    Yes, kind of.
    You may think in that way if it helps you understand it. Although the sentence itself is an assumptive sentence.

    おまえではできない =おまえであれば、できない=おまえであったのなら、できない
    On the premise that the subject is you, the subject cannot do it.

    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえでは役立たない.=せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえであれば、役立たない.
    =せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえであったなら役立たない.
    On the premise that you wear that awesome armor, it won't work.

    It might be better for you to think:

    おまえではできない = おまえであると仮定する。その場合は、できない。

    せっかくの鎧も、着る者がおまえであると仮定しよう。その場合は、役立たない。
     

    Katzuhiko Minohara

    Senior Member
    Spanish Mexico
    ケンシロウさんは、ポルトガル語が話せるので

    せっかくの、折角の、
    so worthwile, so worthy
    so valuable, so valued,
    tão valioso
     
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