だよ/だね vs. よ/ね

[sneeka2]

Even my Japanese friends have trouble explaining this to me: When to use だ and when not to? As examples: きれいだね vs. きれいね, 面白いだよ vs. 面白いよ. I always get scolded by them for doing it wrong, but nobody was able to come up with a consistent rule yet. I usually fall back on ですね, since that seems to be more consitent, but I want to be able to speak informally too!

Some insight would be much appreciated.

 

[cualkiera]

Hello sneeka2, first, sorry for my English.

Well I think, that my teacher said me that だ　is use in informal language and without だ　is use in coloquial language. In coloquial language leave out a lot of words, but です/だ　is leave out always.
Which is the difference between coloquial language and informal language? I don't know, but between close friends you can leave out the verb です。
Sorry I only have 3 kyuu, if anyone with more level than me appear, he can haelp you more.

Bye
また後で！！！

 

[jorge_val_ribera]

Apart from that, you should know that it is wrong to put だ after an i-adjective, so 面白いだよ is wrong.

EDIT: Besides, it's also wrong to put a だ when asking a question, so asking something like 猫はどこだか？ is wrong

 

[s_a_n_t_i]

Actually, that there's no rule for that. The fact that you put だ or take it off from the sentence, doesn't make it more or less colloquial or informal that it is, (Because when you're using だ, you're talking in colloquial language).

The only thing I'd add is that, taking off だ, is often used by women, and adding it, is more menish.
E.g., A man would say 「あの車きれいだね」, while a woman 「あの車きれいね」.

Correct me if I am wrong.
Peace.
Santi.

 

[sneeka2]

Hi all, thanks for the input. I think my friend and I agreed on the い and な-adjective difference, but then we found some inconsistency in this rule too. Is it certain that だ after an い-adjective is a no go, without exceptions? Then I think the な-adjectives were inconsistent. Or are all of the following correct?

嫌いだよ、きれいだね、元気だよ、静かだね、好きだな、暇だよ

At least 静かだね sounds kinda wrong to me, but I'm not sure.
Can anybody tell me why it's so complicated anyway? Isn't だ simply a colloquial です?

Thanks, Cheers!

 

[Flaminius]

嫌いだよ、きれいだね、元気だよ、静かだね、好きだな、暇だよ

Everything is correct. They are all na-adjectives. 嫌い and きれい looks like i-adjectives but they are not. 嫌い、きれい、元気、静か、好き、暇 are just morphemes that form adjectives with -na. I would go so far as to say they are not even words, just morphemes (a smaller unit that constitute words when and only when combined with other morphemes).

The complication comes from the fact that the boundary between those morphemes (or na-adjective roots) and ordinary nouns is blurry. Some of them can act as a noun in certain context while others cannot.

E.g.,
OK 元気をもらう
genki-o morau (given energy)

*静かをこのむ
while 静けさを好む (like quietude) is okay.

I admit everything is really simply for me as a native. Please post more questions if you need clarifications or maybe let's wait for others to answer. I am also interested!

Flam

 

[s_a_n_t_i]

Is it certain that だ after an い-adjective is a no go, without exceptions?

No, it is not. You can use だ（よ、ね、etc） or です（よ、ね、etc） after any adjective, because it finalises the phrase. Notice that the use of のです or んです is very common in this sentences.
E.g.,
●マークさんは毎日忙しそうですね。
●今日買ったみかん、本当においしかったのです。
●あの行列とても長いんだね。
●「フレンズ」っていう番組、すごく面白いんだね。

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace.
Santi.

 

[sneeka2]

*静かをこのむ
while 静けさを好む (like quietude) is okay.

I admit everything is really simply for me as a native.

Thanks for the examples Flam. Haha, yes, everything's so easy when you're a native. I could tell you things about German that'd just make you go えええええ?! I like your creation "quitetude", although you were probably looking for "stillness" or "serenity".

No, it is not. You can use だ（よ、ね、etc） or です（よ、ね、etc） after any adjective, because it finalises the phrase. [examples]

Okay, anyway, so am I right when I say
い-adjective + だ is always correct
な-adjective + だ is always wrong
but な-adjective + んだ is (always?) correct

So as usual, if I want to tack on certain words (だ in this case) I just have to modify the adjective accordingly?

 

[Flaminius]

Okay, anyway, so am I right when I say
OK い-adjective + だ is always correct
* な-adjective + だ is always wrong
OK but な-adjective + んだ is (always?) correct

So as usual, if I want to tack on certain words (だ in this case) I just have to modify the adjective accordingly?

Flam: Image reduced to OK and * to conform to the maximum number for images in a post, which is 8

I'd say:

* い-adjective + だ is always wrong
うつくしいだよ but うつくしいよ
OK な-adjective + だ is always correct
静かだよ and 静かよ though the latter definitely belongs to female register.
OK Both い-adjective and な-adjective can be combined with んだ.
美しいんだよ。
静かなんだよ。

 

[sneeka2]

Okay, seems I got it backwards. ^_^;;

So, い-adjectives don't need anything, as usual.
美しい花ですね。　ー　うん、美しいよ。

な-adjectives used with だ are fine, kinda like +な.
大変な問題ですね。　ー　うん、大変だよ。

BUT, they can also do without だ.
うん、大変よ。(females)

Both can be used with んだ for reasons yet unknown to me.
うん、美しいんだよ。
うん、大変なんだよ。

Did I get that right so far? Can anybody find any exceptions in that?
And, could you please elaborate on the last point a little more, Flaminius? What's the difference in meaning when adding んだ, if there is any?

宜しくお願い致します。

 

[SpiceMan]

hmm, it's rather difficult to explain the nuance difference.

adding の (verbs and i adjectives) and なの (nouns and na adjectives) it's a way to nominalize things, even nouns (which is rather weird ).
By nominalizing, you address the subject in a more indirect way, that is, it's a less direct/blunt way to speak.

for instance, asking someone who got late to work:
どうして遅刻（ちこく）しましたか　asks why he/she got late, in a rather direct way. can be perceived as disapproving the fact of being late.
どうして遅刻したのですか　asks why he/she got late in a rather indirect way. So the person asking is more interested on the reason rather than expressing being upset about the fact of getting late.

 

[Flaminius]

Ending a sentence with のだ/のです (colloquially んだ/んです) is indeed nominalisation but the effect is not necessarily that of softening:

(As an answer to "Are the rooms all occupied?")

はい、満室です。 hai, manshitsu desu.
Yes, all the rooms are occupied. This is more or less the unmarked, therefore emotionally neutral, utterance. However, as it is a direct utterance, customer service personnels may avoid simply stating the fact. They tend to use nandesu form to add some emotional implication.

はい、満室なんです。 hai, manshitsu nandesu.
The same information is conveyed but with some emotion of the speaker. It can be either positive or negative emotion. One has to check the context if the hotel receptionist is expressing regret for the inconvenience or irritation at being asked a very obvious question (You cannot just show up like this. It is the mid-summer high season now).


When an interrogative sentence has nandesu, it can assume an accusatory air:

まだいますか。 mada imasu-ka.
This sentence just asks if you are staying still. Usually construed as containing no emotional connotations.

まだいるんですか。 mada irundesu-ka.
The connotation of the sentence again depends on the context. However, the chances are that it shows irritation at the fact that the hearer is still hanging around here. He should have left 5 hours ago!

Well, so clear that mud can look like a crystal, but this is the countenance of a living language. Maybe English "I am being lazy" and other constructions are as multi-facetted?

Flam

 

[SpiceMan]

Well, yes, I was kinda careless. I just though about one example and wrote down what I could think about that particular example.

Nominalizing usually gives a subtle change on the mood of the phrase. And this largely varies depending on the situation, tone of voice, and usual meanings a particular phrase may convey.

キライなんだ is way more blunt than without nominalization, imho, for instance. Perhaps, rather than "blunt", it would be more apropiate to say that the emphasis is stronger in this case.

 

[jorge_val_ribera]

Isn't だ simply a colloquial です?

No. You must learn to ban that thought of "だ = informal です", or you'll have many problems.

だ and です are very different grammatically. だ is not only something you "can add to the end of the sentence", it is also a word that has grammatical importance.

Take, for example, this sentence:

あの猫がきれいだと思う。

There, the だ fulfills a grammatical role, and you can't leave it out:

あの猫がきれいと思う。

And if you want to say that in polite speech, you won't turn the だ into a です, you will leave it that way (because it is fulfilling its grammatical role):

あの猫がきれいですと思います。
あの猫がきれいだと思います。

-------
Now, take a look at this sentence:

部屋は静かですか？

If you want to turn that into informal speech, you can't just turn the です into a だ, because that'd be wrong.

部屋は静かだか？

Instead, you would say something like:

部屋は静か？
部屋は静かなの？

-----
You can say 新しいです。, but not 新しいだ。

Etc.

As you can see, だ and です aren't used in the same situations, so you should learn how to use them separately.

 

[toscairn]

-na adjective: 形容動詞
-i adjective: 形容詞 (in Japanese sense only! "Adjective" in English definition of the word corresponds to 「形容詞」、「形容動詞」「連体詞」 in Japanese Grammar's definition.

Japanese "adjective": １：形容詞　（小さい、白い、短い）　(also taught to JSL students as "-i adjectives" The conjugation of this group (in Japanese))
　２： 形容動詞（重要な、きれいな、静かな(also "-na adjectives" The conjugation of this group (in Japanese))
3:連体詞（小さな、大きな）　(This group of words don't conjugate. They are always of the same form. Every time you see them each as 小さな、大きな.)

As you can see from the explanation above, 形容詞（英語）≠形容詞（日本語）. keiyoushi in Japanese is only part of the "adjective" in English sense.

Let's introduce one important distinction between "the dictionary form" and "the basic form."

One good advice would definitely to memorize a 形容動詞's dictionary form, that is, きれいな　as a whole, not きれい. That would eliminate a lot of confusion! The basic form, not the dictionary form, of きれいな　is きれいだ。Here you should not separate 「だ」 from 「きれい」, but you should consider it as a whole as the basic form of きれいな. Are you with me so far?

Then let's go on to 形容詞's dictionary form. Take 「小さい」 for example. This is the dictionary form as well as the basic form of the word. 「小さいだ」 is no-no!
　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

 

[toscairn]

I wonder if "the basic form" was a bad choice of words; it should be "predicate"?

 

[sneeka2]

Many thanks to all of you, SpiceMan, Flaminius, jorge and toscairn! I think you cleared things up a lot for me; especially the last two posts by jorge and toscairn were most enlightening. One of the main problems is apparently that every single book I've come across tells you that there are な and い-adjectives. But it seems the English concept of adjectives doesn't translate too well into Japanese, hence all the misunderstandings. I'll go over all the valuable material you provided once more shortly and will probably come back with some more questions. =)

Thank you again so far.