っていうのよ

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thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
遊「ちょ、ちょっと待て、一度落ち着いて話し合おう」
響「なにを話し合うっていうのよ
遊「ええと…...」
遊「俺が拒否した場合と、そのリスクについて」

Hi. How should I understand the というのよ? How is it different from んですか?
Thank you.
 
  • thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you. But as far as I know, というのか means “Are you saying...?” or “Do you mean...?” so it should be preceded by a declarative sentence rather than a question.

    So the sample sentence in question sounds like “Are you saying what we are going to discuss?”, which is a bit odd to me. (I was expecting something like 何かを話し合うというのか).

    So how should I understand the pattern「<疑問詞 (an interrogative)>+というのか」?
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    So the sample sentence in question sounds like “Are you saying what we are going to discuss?”, which is a bit odd to me. (I was expecting something like 何かを話し合うというのか).
    You are trying to fit a Japanese grammatical construction into English, which fails this time as they are two very different languages. If you insist on English equivalent, then:
    What do you say we should discuss?
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    イライラとか催促は間接疑問文という構文の選択そのもので表されます。終助詞「よ」はそれを増幅しているだけと考える方が理にかないます。「私はずっと前からあなたが好きだったのよ」には特に上述の感情は含まれませんから。

    あと、これはもしかすると他のネイティヴから異論があるかもしれませんが、女言葉としての「よ」は、21世紀の日本語からは失われつつあります。戦前の女学校で流行した言葉遣いに起源があるという説を聞いたことがあります。もちろん戦後も行われましたが、一般的だったのは90年代まででしょう。今では創作物に特有な表現となってきているともいえます。だから、響という登場人物が「よ」を使うのは、作者の技法として<も>理解すべきです。恐らく、作者は物語世界を現代日本より古風な社会に置き、響を中流より上の出身として造形しているのではないかと思います。これは、うがちすぎかもしれませんけどね。
     
    Last edited:

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again. So can I think the pattern「<疑問詞 (an interrogative)>+というのか」has a negative implication?
    「なにを話し合うっていうのよ」(implies: There is no need for discussion)
    「誰が彼を殺したというのか」(implies: He was probably not killed by someone)
    「我が社の窮地をどう救うというのか」(implies: there is no help for the dilemma our company is in)
    (Upon reflection, I shall provide the original sentence since this shortened one may not make much sense)

    Does it make sense?
     
    Last edited:

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I presume that you mean a rhetorical question by "negative implication." Not necessarily.
    だれが彼を殺したというのか does not entail the speaker's conviction that the said person died of natural causes. There are a few implications of this sentence:
    1. The speaker has a sure suspect in their mind and they do not believe that the listener can come up with another, equally convincing, suspect.
    2. The speaker thinks it is impossible to find the murderer, and that even the listener cannot find the killer.

    Oh, and イライラと催促 too: Hey, if you know the murderer, tell us the name already!
     
    Last edited:

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you. It seems the pattern「<疑問詞 (an interrogative)>+というのか」has more implications than it’s counterpart without any interrogative. So how about the other two sample sentences? Do they also have a few implications?

    「なにを話し合うっていうのよ」
    一体精霊が、我が社の窮地をどう救ってくれるというんですか!
    (For example, 精霊が、我が社の窮地を救ってくれるというんですか。This counterpart seems to just say “the speaker doubt 精霊 would be of any help to the dilemma of their company”. But the original may have more implications?)
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    They imply disbelief at there being a need to talk and that a ghost has a means for saving their company. Compared with 救ってくれるというのか, どう救ってくれるというのか isn't so different in that they are both rhetorical questions. Still, adding どう (how) hints at there being no means that a ghost possesses that can save the company.

    Versions of the sentences that use というのか express exasperations at the speaker too (cf. イライラと催促 supra).
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thanks again. I see.
    Versions of the sentences that use というのか expresses exasperations at the speaker too (cf. イライラと催促 supra).
    By the way, do you mean “listener”? Why would the speaker be exasperated with themselves?
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Hi. Can I ask about another example?
    「……何が目的!?一体どんな打算があれば、自分を困らせた犯人を助けるっていうのよ!」
    The speaker, 七罪, did something every bad to 士道 and his friends. Yet, 士道 came to save 七罪’s life anyway.

    Does the っていうのよ turn this sentence a rhetorical question? Or the っていうのよ just functions as イライラと催促 or an emphasis?
     
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