できるものではない

thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
とはいえ目の前を弾を通りぬけていくなんて、日常生活でそう体験できるものではない

Hi. I have checked a grammar book and according to it, when ものではない means “it’s impossible to do something”, we should use た form before ものではない. Why in this sentence is the dictionary form used?

Thank you.
 
  • SoLaTiDoberman

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    体験できものではない。
    = It's so terrible and it is not something that we want to experience.

    そう体験できものではない。
    =It is very rare and valuable. We are lucky to experience it.

    The difference is whether it has a positive connotation or a negative connotation.
    ”そう” is another important factor to decide which.

    この料理は食えたものではない。
    The dish is too awful to eat.

    この料理はそう食べれるものではない。
    We can have a rare opportunity to eat it.

    In short, 『そう+可能の意味を含む動詞の現在形+ものではない』means different from the grammar explanation you quoted.
     
    Last edited:

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I disagree. It's た that codes negative judgments for the object. Other modal uses of -ta include:
    1. imperative (行った行った; go away already)
    2. determination (よし決めた)
    3. light jussive, proposition (そろそろ出かけたら)

    I think 3 is the closest to the case at hand. By virtue of ない, 体験できたものではない and 食えたものではない is understood, "I can't stand it, nor would I recommend it to you." It is also possible that they are kith and kin with the less emohatic:
    そう悲観したものでもないよ。
    You don't need to be so pessimistic about it.
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you both!
    I have checked another grammar book. It seems ものではない has a third meaning— “one naturally cannot do something” (please see Notes 1). When ものではない is used in this sense, we can use できる or other verbs in dictionary form before it, as in example (g) and (h). Is it possible that my topic sentence is used in this way?
    42503D20-1CBD-4D33-BB26-2C14320C2676.jpeg
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    You sentence shares the function with g and h. Having said that, your following summary is wrong.
    It seems ものではない has a third meaning— “one naturally cannot do something” (please see Notes 1). When ものではない is used in this sense, we can use できる or other verbs in dictionary form before it, as in example (g) and (h).
    The three functions of the monodewanai-construction:
    1. Moral injunction uses the dictionary form of the verb; そんなに大声を出すものではない.
    2. Natural impossibility uses the potential form of the verb (some verbs resort to できる for forming the potential); 10分もじっとしていられるものではない.
    3. Impossibility with negative judgment for the object uses the ta-form of potential verb; お粗末で食べられたものではない.
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you for the correction. So the そう in 日常生活でそう体験できるものではない is just an adverb referring to the preceding clause, right?
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Hi. I’m not completely sure because the そう in the topic sentence can be considered as part of another pattern そう... でわない (not... very), which also seems to make sense here. So the そう体験 is not necessarily “experience this”.
     
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