というんだから

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thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
「ーー見たかエレン。誰も彼も、ことの重大さを理解していない。そんな無能者が雁首を揃えて、万人に一人の天才を糾弾しているしているというんだからおかしなものだ」

Hi. According to the context, the speaker attended the trial where the 天才 (hereafter referred to by “her”) was being judged by the 無能者s and the speaker exerted his influence on the judge to help the 天才 get away with her wrongdoing.

What are the usages of のだから?
According to the above link,
「A + というのだから + B.」 expresses:
"Since they say A, (which was unexpected, surprising, etc.), I now must conclude that B."

But in this context, the speaker didn’t just hear of the event but took part in it. So why というのだ, which should be used for hearsay, is used there? What would be the function of the bold というんだ?
Thank you.
 
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  • Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    In this case, という doesn't have the essence of 'say', it is just used as an emphasis.
    You can change this sentence to '万人に一人の天才を糾弾しているんだからおかしなものだ'
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Hi, Yokozuna-san. Can I ask about another similar example?
    だが、それも無理からぬことである。何しろ、精霊の力を封印し、一部とはいえそれを使用しているというのだ。精霊と断じられても不思議はない。
    Context: the protagonist (士道) has the ability to seal the power of 精霊 and can use the part of the power he has sealed. And 士道’s classmate 折紙 saw 士道 use the power the day before and now 折紙 is asking 士道 whether he is human or 精霊.

    Is the bold というのだ just for emphasis? It doesn’t seem to refer to hearsay there. If not, what function does it have?
    Thank you.
     

    Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Yes, this という is for emphasis, too.
    It also makes sense if you omit という → 一部とはいえそれを使用しているのだ。
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you, Yokozuna-san. By the way, can this bold のだ express the writer's emotion such as surprise, as in the following link?
    というのである

    (I think the というのである in the above link and というのだ in post #4 in this thread are of the same usage, because both examples adopt the pattern 何しろ... というのだ/である. But somehow the という is interpreted as 伝聞 in the other thread. So I’m a bit confused.:confused:)
     

    Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    何しろ買い物から帰ってきたら、出かける前に見ていた街とは別の光景が広がっていたというのである。その場にへたり込んでしまわないだけ、折紙はまだ幾分落ち着いているのかもしれなかった。
    Well, という has several meanings, and its interpretation depends on the context.
    何しろ also works as an emphasis, but it doesn't influence the function of という.

    ①If 折紙 heard the shocking news that the scenery of the town completely changed, という would be 伝聞.
    ②But 折紙 oneself saw the scenery and got shocked, という would be an emphasis.
    (I think ② might be the case here because one won't get so shocked just by hearing the news, to find it almost difficult to keep standing.)
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again. Then how about the のだ/のである? Are they just used to explain the reasons in both contexts?
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Hi. Can I ask about another example of という?
    「転入生?」
    折紙が問うと、令音が「ああ」と首肯した。
    「……本来なら休み明けに転入してくるはずだったのだが……是非修学旅行に参加したいというものでね、現地で合流する手はずになっていたんだ。先ほど空港に到着したと連絡があったので、彼らに迎えに行ってもらっていたのさ」

    Does the red part mean “because”? If so, why isn’t といったもので used here? I know if we use the pattern もので to mean “because”, we need たform before もので, as in 彼は約束の時間に遅れたもので、彼女に怒られた。. Or this という is also for emphasis?

    Thank you.
     

    Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    是非修学旅行に参加したいというもので
    Yes, this もので means 'because'. And this という mean ’say~’

    The Japanese tense largely depends on the following two steps.
    1. The speaker sets one's standpoint on the flow of time, and the standpoint easily shifts while speaking, depending on the speaker's focus.
    (I think this is the most different rule from the English tense, where the speaker's standpoint is mostly fixed.)
    2. Then the speaker sets the direction of one's focus from the standpoint→ to the future, to the present, or to the past.
    (Sometimes this direction itself influences the speaker's standpoint. )
    The difference between the Japanese future and present tense is not so wide as the difference from the past tense.

    Here, 令音 is setting one's standpoint on when the new student said something, also setting one's attention toward the future.
    When the new school student told them about the school trip, they were going to meet at the designated place.

    といった also fits here, it means that 令音 is paying attention to the fact the new student said (=the past) something.
    (This is not a big difference.)

    彼は約束の時間に遅れたもので、彼女に怒られた
    In this case, the speaker pays one's attention to the fact she got angry, which means the speaker is looking back.
    She got(=the past) angry because he was (=the past) late.
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you very much.
    When the new school student told them about the school trip, they were going to meet at the designated place.
    Hmm... this is not how I would interpret the story.

    Sorry for not having provided more context because I previously thought the quote was clear enough. The story is that the protagonist and his classmates went on a school trip. The two new students heard about the school trip (the destination of the trip was an island, which was referred to by 現地) and they wanted to take part in it before the vacation ended. So they arranged to meet the class on the island and 令音 sent the protagonist and another student to pick up the new students. (Actually this is a lie told by 令音 because 令音 didn’t want the class to know the true identities of the new students)

    So could you interpret it again?:thank you: And will this change the rest of your explanation (including your explanation in the other related thread about もらっていた)?
     
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    Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Edit: I think the following explanation is wrong. See#17.

    OK! That won't change the rest of my explanation.

    What I wanted to describe is the relative relation between the two moments = when the new school student said something and when they met the other classmates.

    1. When the new student said something=令和's standpoint on the flow of time
    2. When they met the other classmates= in the future direction from 令和's standpoint

    I think this No.2 (the future direction) influenced 令音's mindset, that's why 令音 chose No.1 as her standpoint and finished the first phrase with the present tense.
    The relation between these No.1 and No.2 is very strong = cause-result relation, which made the direction of 令和's attention toward the future even stronger and made her use the present tense for the new student's remark which was actually said in the past.
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you for clearing my confusion!
    現地で合流する手はずになっていたんだ
    By the way, can we use 現地で合流する手はずになっているんだ? I think we can because meeting the other classmates is in the future direction from 令音's standpoint.
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Hi. Upon reflection, I don't think we can use 現地で合流する手はずになっているんだ now, because according to the story, the new students have already met the class so we have to say 現地で合流する手はずになっていたんだ to mean "the plan was". If we use 現地で合流する手はずになっているんだ, it would mean "the plan is", which would imply the new students haven't met the class. Am I on the right track?
     
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    Yokozuna

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Yes, that's right.
    But I found my explanation #12 and #14 was not good.

    先ほど空港に到着したと連絡があったので、彼らに迎えに行ってもらっていたのさ
    This example has a clear cause-result relation. But you cannot say '連絡があるので、彼らに迎えに行ってもらっていたのさ'.

    I don't think I was wrong with the latter half explanation in #12,
    是非修学旅行に参加したいといったものでね、現地で合流する手はずになっていたんだ。
    といった also fits here, it means that 令音 is paying attention to the fact the new student said (=the past) something.
    (This is not a big difference.)

    彼は約束の時間に遅れもので、彼女に怒られた
    In this case, the speaker pays one's attention to the fact she got angry, which means the speaker is looking back.
    She got(=the past) angry because he was (=the past) late.
    Here, the speakers set their standpoint on 'now' and looking back on the past.

    But my explanation was wrong with the folloing example.
    There is a cause-result relation in this phrase, but it doesn't explain why she chose the present tense.
    是非修学旅行に参加したいというものでね、現地で合流する手はずになっていたんだ。
    令音 used the present tense because she thinks the new student wish to attend the school trip still exists now.
    This したいという has a certain duration like the English word 'want'.

    Whereas these states, 連絡がある and 現地で合流する手はずになっている, cannot persist until now.
    That's why we should use the past tense 連絡があった and 手はずになっていた to show those states have finished by now.
     
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