はず/わけ がない, ないはず/わけ

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by ihitokage, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Hey, just a short question.
    I recently was looking for more examples or hazu/wake usage and came to this.
    わかるはず (わけ) がないでしょう。
    I just wonder if I can write it also like this:

    Is it also correct? If yes are there any differences in the meaning?

  2. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Oh I humbly suggest you that you're missing ない in the second case.



    Yep All OK. As you said, no differences in the meaning. The first two are more polite, the second two are less polite and colloquial.

    Then why is が necessary in the first cases? What's this が anyway? Stupid が or Dummy が? No lol, I don't have an answer but..
    remember we can sometimes omit particles like が、を and more.
    e.g. 歯みがき持ってる?Do you have (a tube of) toothpaste?

    We often say like this in conversation, and I think yours is this case. I don't recommend you to omit particles often;)
  3. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member


    Thank you very much again. However heh I guess I wrote nonsense then in that second example. I wondered if I can use it like verb ~ない form + はず (わけ)
  4. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Yours わからないはずでしょう and わからないわけでしょう give a meaning different to those four. Ahaha~. BTW, the four examples are when sb strongly says 'I don't understand!'

    In those two, see there are at least two people: a person who doesn't understand and a person who is estimating/assuming, saying ’でしょう’. And the second person is talking to the hearer. Or that depends on the context.
  5. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Yea so when I use わからないはずでしょう, could that mean: "He probably cannot understand that!" ?
    Btw sorry for taking your time with my stupid questions :D
  6. Schokolade

    Schokolade Senior Member

    わかるはずがない・わかるわけがない>> It is not possible (for someone) to know/understand; It is highly unlikely that someone knows/understands...
    わからないはずだ・わからないわけだ >> No wonder someone doesn't know/understand; It is quite natural (for someone) not to know/understand...
    (わからないはずだ can also mean "I'm sure someone doesn't/wouldn't know", depending on the context)
  7. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

  8. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    It's a question which has puzzled me for a long time.
    We have three choice here: は, が or omit it. Written Japanese has a strong tendency to attach particles, if we don't take spoken Japanese into account, we have to make a choice between は and が.

    I wrote my observation of the use of は in negative sentences here.

    I feel that, when you say わかるわけがない, you want to negate わかる; when you say わかるはずはない you want to negate the はずだ part of わかるはずだ, which is unusual. (But possible)
    It's interesting that, even though it is a negation against the わかる part, you will not put a は after わかる or after the noun it modifies. (*わかりはするはずがない→?わかるはずはない)

    The listener seems to believe that someone knows. Instead of negating the the proposition directly with "わからない", you say "(その)はずがない". You use が because you want him to notice the nonexistence of the possibility or rationale.

    Other similar expressions that usually take が: 時間がない, 金がない, したことがない ...
  9. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member


    あなたも ありがとう
  10. Tonky Senior Member

    Both わかるわけがない and わかるはずがない are negating わかる訳/わかる筈, but not negating わかる here. わかる is modifying 訳/筈 and you cannot negate the modifying part only. And the same way, we can say わからないわけがない and わからないはずがない.

    わかるわけがない、わかるはずがない = わからないはずだ, but not always わからないわけだ
    わからないわけがない、わからないはずがない = わかるはずだ, but not always わかるわけだ

    わけ for わかるわけだ/わからないわけだ tends to take another meaning, "the reason", such as "ah, that must be why you understand/don't understand". On the other hand, はず for わからないはずだ/わかるはずだ always means "should" or " be supposed to". わけ requires a certain context sometimes, but I cannot think of when or what at the moment.
  11. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    わかるはずはない vs わかるはずがない?
    Depends on the context...

    私にはわかるはずがありません。 私にはわかるはずはありません。でもOKだけど、が、を使った方がいいね。この場合はすこし強調が入るよ。

    私たちには相対性理論などわかるはずはない。 私たちには相対性理論などわかるはずがない。・・これもどっちでもいい気がするな。後者もちょっと強調のように聞こえるかもね。「わけ」の場合も同様かな?


    いつも思うんだけど、「雨_降っていますか?」ってあるでしょ? 「は」、がいいけど、「が」、でも特別ひどい間違いじゃないと思うんだ。
  12. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Ahh..don't be sorry, let me explain once again.

    わからないはずでしょう is better if it's わからないはずです: I bet you don't understand.
    わからない=you, and the person who says 'はずです' is a speaker.
    わかるはずです is I bet you (will) understand.

    When you use でしょう, this shows your estimation/assumption. わからないはずでしょう・・?This is possible but はず means your 'conviction/confidence', so わかるはずです is better. (I mean that using conviction + estimation is difficult.)
  13. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Yea I can feel the meaning of deshou.
  14. YangMuye

    YangMuye Senior Member

    Yes. I didn't write clear enough.
    I meant that you negate はず/わけ to negate わかる indirectly.
    I saw another opinion, which considered "はずがない" as "a whole" behaving like a clause. e.g. そのはずがない has an unsaid から and is the basis of "きっと分からないだろう".

    すこし強調が入るって、私が言った「want him to notice」という感じかな、と思います。



    要するに 「物事の始まり」のような質問文は、「が」が使われやすいわけです。

  15. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member


    Oh hell :D
  16. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan


  17. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Umm sorry for coming back to this topic but do I understand it correctly that this sentence わかるはず (わけ) がないでしょう。
    Is literally translated as "I definitely don't have the understanding?"
    I mean if I write that in a full sentence, would it be like this?

    Just wanna make it clear in my head. :D
  18. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    わかるはずがない/わかるわけがない, strictly speaking, they are a bit strong negation. But..adding でしょう, estimation, is possible in Japanese..
    わかるはずがないでしょう could be わかるはずがないだろう, and yes, both are common, and would be like..

    I suppose that I'm sure I don't understand.
    I suppose that I don't have a way to understand.

    Or, BTW,
    this could be the case you're making sure with a hearer, too. So 'I don't understand, do I?/don't you think?'. If so, adding ? is better.

    わたしにわかるはず(わけ)ことがありませんでしょう? This is difficult..we don't say so, sorry.
  19. ihitokage

    ihitokage Senior Member

    Thank you, I understand the meaning already just wanted to make sure that the grammar is shortened わたしにわかるはず(わけ)ことがありませんでしょう。

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