もんじゃない

[thetazuo]

「そこまでは言わないけど……あの年頃の男子なんて、行動のベクトルが基本女の子にどう意識されるかに向いてるもんじゃない。……女子の間で自分の変な噂が流れてたとか、隣の女子に冷たくされたとか、そういうのでも簡単に沈んじゃうものよ」

Hi. What is the meaning of the もんじゃない(ものではない)? It doesn’t appear to be a fixed grammatical construction here.

Thank you.

 

[SoLaTiDoberman]

もんじゃない＝もんじゃない↑＝もんじゃない？＝ものではないですか？＝ものでしょう？
It is not negation but asking for agreement.

 

[thetazuo]

Thank you. So is もんじゃない a fixed phrase that asks for agreement? Or does the もん/もの refer to あの年頃の男子?

 

[SoLaTiDoberman]

「あの年頃の男子なんて、行動のベクトルが基本女の子にどう意識されるかに向いてる 」＝もの（もん）, that

You can abbreviate the もん or もの in this context.

 

[Flaminius]

もんじゃない＝もんじゃない↑

If this suggests that the もんじゃない in the text is uttered with a rising intonation, then I must disagree. The kind of じゃない that seeks agreement is uttered with a flat tone.

またクッキー食べるの?　さっき3枚食べたじゃない。

This is intended to remind the speaker that they are eating too much.
It is not difficult to gather from here how ものじゃない (< ものだ + ない) works.

 

[SoLaTiDoberman]

If this suggests that the もんじゃない in the text is uttered with a rising intonation, then I must disagree. The kind of じゃない that seeks agreement is uttered with a flat tone.

Interesting! I understand your point, but I disagree.
In my humble opinion, there can be two patterns, a rising intonation and a flat tone.
I think it's quite the same thing as the "tag question" in English.
I intentionally wrote ↑ because I wanted to let thetazuo know that it was different from a merely negative sentence.

Now I want to make sure something if you know the ギター侍、羽田陽区’s performance, although it's quite obsolete. （If you don't know, you may watch it on Youtube.)
「　〇〇、　〇〇、　〇〇、って言うじゃなぁい？（　）　　でも、○○って××ですから！　残念！」
I think his tone is ↑, while you think it is →, right?

It's very interesting. I thought it was ↑, while you might say that it was →.
（言うじゃ）なぁい　　　→↗→　SLTD
（言うじゃ）なぁい　　　→↗↘→　Flaminius　　　　
Is this correct?
Or do you also think that it takes a rising intonation pattern in case of his performance, but it's exceptional?


今日、ケンタッキーにしない？（　）　　by 高畑充希
To my ears, it's rising, but if it must be flat, it might be flat. I don't know.

 

[thetazuo]

Thank you both.

It is not difficult to gather from here how ものじゃない (< ものだ + ない) works.

So this ものじゃない is just the combination of ものだ (with the nuance of 当然だ/当たり前だ) and じゃない (of seeking agreement), right?

 

[Flaminius]

Yes, you are right, thetazuo.

SLTD, after your comment #6, I think I needed to look at all three accent patterns for もんじゃない.
Negation: LLLHL
Emphatic (Flam #5): HLLLL
Agreement seeking (SLTD #2, #6): HLLLH