借(了)两本书回来, 借回来(了)两本书

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rydell

Senior Member
Spanish
Hello,

In these two sentences 姐姐借回来两本书。 姐姐借回两本书来。Isn't it necessary the particle 了 any more?

Thank you.
 
  • brofeelgood

    Senior Member
    English, 中文
    Hello,

    In these two sentences 姐姐借回来两本书。 姐姐借回两本书来。Isn't it necessary the particle 了 any more?

    Thank you.
    It's incongruous to have either as a standalone sentence without providing a supporting context. It's almost the same as saying, "My sister borrows two books." and stopping right there without further temporal, causal or modal backup. It's weird, especially for third persons and third person pronouns like 他, 他们, 张三, 李四.

    姐姐 每个月 都会 从图书 借两本书回来. <- no 了 but valid, because of the supporting elements.
    My sister borrows two books from the library every month. <- even in English, this sounds better.

    With a second person pronoun, the mood turns imperative.
    - (你...去)借两本书回来
    - (You... go) borrow two books.

    With first person, it becomes a declaration of a future action, just like a "I will", "We will".
    - (我去)拿两瓶酒过来
    - I will bring two bottles of wine over
     

    rydell

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    It's incongruous to have either as a standalone sentence without providing a supporting context. It's almost the same as saying, "My sister borrows two books." and stopping right there without further temporal, causal or modal backup. It's weird, especially for third persons and third person pronouns like 他, 他们, 张三, 李四.

    姐姐 每个月 都会 从图书 借两本书回来. <- no 了 but valid, because of the supporting elements.
    My sister borrows two books from the library every month. <- even in English, this sounds better.

    With a second person pronoun, the mood turns imperative.
    - (你...去)借两本书回来
    - (You... go) borrow two books.

    With first person, it becomes a declaration of a future action, just like a "I will", "We will".
    - (我去)拿两瓶酒过来
    - I will bring two bottles of wine over
    I´m very sorry for not to be able to provide a support context, but these were examples given by our teacher to try to explain us the complexity of directional complements. The example given in the thread 姐姐借了两本书回来 was translated as "My older sister borrowed two books". We're being taught a very very basic level and the teacher of this year is new in this job.
     

    brofeelgood

    Senior Member
    English, 中文
    I´m very sorry for not to be able to provide a support context, but these were examples given by our teacher to try to explain us the complexity of directional complements. The example given in the thread 姐姐借了两本书回来 was translated as "My older sister borrowed two books". We're being taught a very very basic level and the teacher of this year is new in this job.
    No mate, I'm saying the sentences are incongruous without a supporting context, not that they are so because you failed to provide it. :)

    姐姐借了两本书回来 is a valid sentence. The 了 establishes a completed action, hence the use of "borrowed" in the translation instead of "borrows".
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    I think your teacher had successfully shown the complexity of directional complements. To me,

    (without 了)
    姐姐借两本书回来:cross:(unless it means "sister, go borrow two books for me!")
    姐姐借回来两本书:tick:
    姐姐借回两本书来:tick:

    (了 after verb)
    姐姐借了两本书回来:tick:
    姐姐借回来了两本书:tick:
    姐姐借回了两本书来:confused: (at least not common in modern standard Mandarin, not sure about old-fashioned Mandarin or dialects)

    (了 at the end)
    姐姐借回来两本书了, 姐姐借回两本书来了, 姐姐借两本书回来了 are all bad. It is weird to say "borrow (indefinite) two books" in these 3 structures, "borrow those two books" is better. 姐姐借回来那两本书了, 姐姐借回那两本书来了, 姐姐借那两本书回来了 are all OK.

    The above is the just correctness of the sentences. The meanings of the correct ones may have subtle differences but it's beyond me to tell that clearly, especially the grammar. In many cases, the four correct sentences in the "without 了" and "了 after verb" groups are exchangeable. I guess it's already good to know the complexity of the words at a basic level.
     
    Last edited:

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    她借去两本书, 她借去了两本书, 她借去两本书了
    她借来两本书, 她借来了两本书, 她借来两本书了
    她借回来两本书, 她借回来了两本书, 她借了两本书回来
    Compare: 姐姐借书回来了 (good) vs. 姐姐借两本书回来了 (awkward).
    姐姐借錢回来了, 姐姐借了一些錢回来
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    (了 at the end)
    姐姐借回来两本书了, 姐姐借回两本书来了, 姐姐借两本书回来了 are all bad. It is weird to say "borrow (indefinite) two books" in these 3 structures, "borrow those two books" is better. 姐姐借回来那两本书了, 姐姐借回那两本书来了, 姐姐借那两本书回来了 are all OK.
    When I read it again, I found my previous answer was inaccurate. 姐姐借回来两本书了 and 姐姐借回两本书来了 are actually possible in a special context: 姐姐 has a weird plan to borrow many books, she has borrowed two, and she's going to borrow more. In these two sentences, "两" is stressed (this is different from the other correct sentences), the main information is that sister has borrowed two books (not three). 姐姐借两本书回来了 is still awkward even understanding in this way.
     
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