关门 / 关上门

Matisse2

Member
italian
hi to everyone!

Can anyone tell me the difference between 关门 and 关上门 [...]?
Which one is correct? I'm very confused about this.
It depends on what...?
If I for example say 请你关门 or 请你关上门, which one is the best choice?

And the difference between 关上 and 合上?

Thank you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • NewAmerica

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    There is a little difference between 请你关门 and 请你关上门. Both convey the same meaning. But 请你关上门 sounds a bit milder than 请你关门. The latter sounds as if demanding, while the former sounds neutral to me.

    Regarding 关上 and 合上,
    In Chinese language, "you usually 关上 doors or windows (关上门窗)and 合上 books or albums" (合上书本或相册), but you don't say"合上 doors or windows while 关上books or albums."(而不说”合上门窗" 或“关上书本或相册”)
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    the difference between 关门 and 关上门?
    关 "to shut, fasten, lock; to stop operating, to shut down"
    请你关门 "Please shut the door" (Please fasten the door or please end your business).

    关上 "to move something into position in order to block off view or passage; to shut up, to shut off"
    请你关上门 "Please shut the door" (so that nobody can peek through or no breeze can pass through).

    请你把门关上 vs. *请你把门关

    开 "open, remove obstructions from"
    请你开门 "Please open the door" (Please unfasten the door)

    打开 "make open, push open, draw open, do something to open"
    请你打开门 "Please draw open the door" (Please make the door open)

    请你把门打开 vs. *请你把门开
    the difference between 关上 and 合上?
    "to shut" (关) vs. "to close" (合).
    you don't say"合上 doors or windows
    合上门 (= 闔上门) sounds natural to me. 闔 comes with a 門 radical, which implies that it has something to do with the door.
     
    Last edited:

    Matisse2

    Member
    italian
    Thank you so much!

    Anyway I can use 关上 with door, window while I use 合上 with books, computer and album.
     

    yuechu

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    Anyway I can use 关上 with door, window while I use 合上 with books, computer and album.
    I think that you can use 关 with computers, right?

    Oh, I was also wondering: is the opposite of 关(上) and 合上 both 开 or is there a different word for the opposite of 合? (For example, if you are opening a book or an album)
    Thanks!
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    关 is usually applied to an object that opens or closes by sliding (e.g., sliding door), rolling (e.g., roll-up door), or lifting/dropping (e.g., bulkhead gate), or by turning on or off a switch (e.g., desktop computer, stove).

    合 is usually applied to an object with a hinge joint (e.g., wings of a bird, valves of a clam, leaves of a book, hinged swing doors, two legs joined at the crotch, etc.) or with two symmetrical parts (e.g., lips, eyelids) that are connected on the side(s).

    When I hear 合上电脑, I envision a laptop computer.
    is there a different word for the opposite of 合? (For example, if you are opening a book or an album)
    打开书, 翻开书. It is still 合 vs. 开.
     
    Last edited:

    NewAmerica

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    合上门 (= 闔上门) sounds natural to me. 闔 comes with a 門 radical, which implies that it has something to do with the door.
    It seems that so far linguists have not made an agreement on that 阖门 can be expressed as 合门:

    1.阖家 héjiā(此时可通“合”)
    [the whole family] 全家
    2.阖门 hémén
    [close the door] 关门

    3.阖眼héyǎn(此时可通“合”)
    [close the eyes] 闭眼[1]

    阖_百度百科

    (即对于“阖门”这个词,并不加注(此时可通“合”))


    基本字义
    1.全、总共(此时可通“合”):阖家。阖城。
    2.关闭:阖户。阖门静居。
    3.门扇:仲春之月“耕者少舍,乃修阖扇”

    阖_百度百科

    The etymologies of 阖 and 合 are different:
    阖的异体字|阖的字形|阖的字源|汉典“阖”字的字形字形
    合的异体字|合的字形|合的字源|汉典“合”字的字形字形

    It is no doubt that “合上门”is still in use and natural. But it does not necessarily imply that its etymology goes back to “阖上门”. 阖 has indeed the radical 門, indicating that it has something to do with doors, but its simplified form is not 合, which has its own etymology and is without the radical 門.

    The primary conclusion is: you can use 阖门 or 阖门静居,but not 合门 or 合门静居, which would be informal or not acceptable.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    so far linguists have not made an agreement on that 阖门 can be expressed as 合门
    Really? No agreement yet? I thought it is obvious that 阖门 ≠ 合门 (because 合 is ambiguous in that phrase), but 阖上门 = 合上门 (because the meaning of 合 is clear with the help of 上). I was talking about 合上门 (= 阖上门), not 合门.

    It is "权威结论" (an expression of yours in this thread) that "阖上" means "《國語辭典》閉合、合攏起來。如:「他把輕輕闔上,怕吵醒熟睡中的家人。」也作「合上」" (《國語辭典》「閤」, 通「合」、「闔」。《康熙字典》 合又通作闔。《戰國策》意者,臣愚而不闔於王心耶。《註》闔合同。)
    Note: Being interchangeable does not mean having the same etymologies. My point in #3 was: 闔 has something to do with the door (and so does 閤), and since 闔合同, 合上(= 闔上) may be used in contexts where a door is involved.
     
    Last edited:

    NewAmerica

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    It is deplorable that you seem to have denied the authentic traditional Chinese expression 阖门 or 阖门静居,which exactly refers to 关门 or 关起门来过安静日子:

    《左传·定公八年》:“ 林楚怒马,及衢而骋。 阳越射之,不中。筑者阖门。”

    《新唐书·隐逸传·陆羽》:“上元初,更隐苕溪 ,自称桑苎翁 ,阖门著书。”

    宋 王安石 《与马运判书》:“今阖门而与其子市,而门之外莫入焉,虽尽得子之财,犹不富也。”

    《后汉书 邓寇列传》: 自祖父禹教训子孙,皆遵法度,深戒窦氏,检敕宗族,阖门静居。骘子侍中凤,尝与尚书郎张龛书,属郎中马融宜在台阁。又中郎将任尚尝遗凤马,后尚坐断盗军粮,槛车征诣廷尉,凤惧事泄,先自首于骘。骘畏太后,遂髡妻及凤以谢,天下称之。

    That is, 阖门 shares the same meaning with 阖上门 or 合上门. All of them mean 关上门. Your denial of 阖门 implies that you're academically biased in this discussion.

    It is undeniable that《國語辭典》has its authoritative value in explaining "阖上", but it does not possess the same value in expounding "阖门". Worse still, you cited the irrelevant example from 《康熙字典》(《康熙字典》 合又通作闔。《戰國策》意者,臣愚而不於王心耶。《註》闔合同),in which 阖,though being an alternative of 合, expresses a different meaning: 符合; not 关闭.
     

    kategogogo

    Senior Member
    Japanese Mandrain bilingual
    I think 上 in 关上门 is like the English preposition "up", you may feel the difference between "close it" and "close it up".
    Hmmm, 'close up the door' doesn't seem to me correct. You may close up/off a doorway (meaning blocking off the doorway, it would be a completely different translation: 堵上), but not a door.

    My opinion is ‘上’ doesn't carry any actual meaning here, it serves as an intensifier.
     
    Last edited:

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    Hmmm, 'close up the door' doesn't seem to me correct. You may close up/off a doorway (meaning blocking off the doorway, it would be a completely different translation: 堵上), but not a door.

    My opinion is ‘上’ doesn't carry any actual meaning here, it serves as an intensifier.
    My bad. What I meant was that for 上 and "up" in many phrases, their parts of speech and functions are similar, not their meanings and usages.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    "To close up" has several possible meanings, one of which is "to shut entirely" (e.g., to close up a cut with stitches). In general the addition of "up" indicates completeness (e.g., "we left the basement door open for ventilation, planning to close it only when the rain started to come in...The rain started to come in, so we reluctantly closed up the door and sat down to wait"). And I think "completeness" is what SuperWX was talking about.

    I do think 关上 has the connotations of "close up" (to shut entirely) and "shut off" (to cut off, to stop the flow or passage of, to close off, to isolate). For example, 关上门做皇帝 implies self-isolation==> cutting off contact with the outside world. 關上門後立馬給他一巴掌 ==> 關上門 is to ensure complete blockage of the view and noise. Blocking is the main notion, not fastening or locking.
     
    Last edited:

    Mamanunique

    Senior Member
    Cantonese-China
    关上门: to close a door
    关门: 1. to close a door 2.a shop or a company stop operating(倒闭)
     
    Last edited:

    hulucc

    New Member
    Chinese-China
    In fact we will never say 请你关门. 请把门关上would be ok and native when you asking someone to help you close the door
     

    kategogogo

    Senior Member
    Japanese Mandrain bilingual
    "To close up" has several possible meanings, one of which is "to shut entirely" (e.g., to close up a cut with stitches). In general the addition of "up" indicates completeness (e.g., "we left the basement door open for ventilation, planning to close it only when the rain started to come in...The rain started to come in, so we reluctantly closed up the door and sat down to wait"). And I think "completeness" is what SuperWX was talking about.

    I do think 关上 has the connotations of "close up" (to shut entirely) and "shut off" (to cut off, to stop the flow or passage of, to close off, to isolate). For example, 关上门做皇帝 implies self-isolation==> cutting off contact with the outside world. 關上門後立馬給他一巴掌 ==> 關上門 is to ensure complete blockage of the view and noise. Blocking is the main notion, not fastening or locking.
    谢谢您的解释。

    我有事得先走, 不能留下鎖門, 今天能否請你關門 (= 等所有員工離開後把大門鎖上)?
    ‘关门’也对,但感觉‘关上门’更顺,也更客气,‘关门’一般好像更适合 imperative mood: 关门!:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited:

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    Well, in my sentence 請你關門 means 請你負責"關門"的任務 (Please secure the door). It is different from the door-closing in 你待會兒離開時, 请把门关上, 我不想讓下一個面試者看到我在房裡做什麼 ==> 请把门关上 does not entail 鎖門.
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top