再 / 又

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by tedfromtoronto, Oct 9, 2016.

  1. tedfromtoronto Senior Member

    Toronto
    bilingual CE/AE, understand BE
    Can anyone please tell me the correct usage? One dictionary says 再 is for future or considered action. 对 不 起 请 说 再 一 次?
     
  2. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich, Switzerland
    English, 中文
    It's not only for future actions. 再 can also be used (like 又) to describe repeated actions in the past.

    他又说了一遍 = 他再说了一遍 = 他又再说了一遍
     
  3. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    In 对不起请再说一次, it is true that you cannot replace 再 with 又.
    This sounds wrong to me.
     
  4. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    The original sentence is incorrect.
    It should be 对 不 起 请 再 说 一 次 instead of 对 不 起 请 说 再 一 次.
    It means "Sorry, please say it again."
    再 (again) is an adverb in Chinese. A Chinese adverb should be put in front of the verb.
    再说一次 literally means "again say once".
     
  5. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:SuperXW is right. I didn't notice the order.
     
  6. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich, Switzerland
    English, 中文
    Gosh... is "又再" something that's rejected categorically, or only under specific circumstances?

    Would the following examples be considered right or wrong?
    1) 他依依不舍,回过头来又再看了一眼。
    2) 他从监狱释放出来不到一个月,又再犯案被逮捕了。
    3) 如今我又再回到思念的地方。(歌词:台北的天空)
     
  7. Messquito

    Messquito Senior Member

    台灣台北 Taipei, Taiwan
    Chinese - Taiwan 中文 Taiwanese Hokkien 臺語
    又 (same thing) again, it focuses on the fact that something is done again. (It sometimes shows a little frustration, or overwhelming feelings, as if the thing is done too much.)
    再 is a little different, it is somewhat like "further" or "as a followup". It focused more on the "purpose/result", not "doing the same thing again". It is used as if the thing is not done enough to reach the goal or has not been done yet or something is not finished yet.
    I would accept that use, which to me means somewhat like "again and again".
    It would suggest that it should be the 3rd time or more that the action is done.
    For 2), it would suggest that it is not the first time that he "repeats" the crime, (it would be his third time or more), otherwise it should be "又犯案被逮捕了/因再犯案又被捕了", but I have to admit that many people use 2) to mean the latter.
    It is like some people consider "repeat...again" wrong in English, but if the action is in fact done more than three times (repeated more than twice), then there is really nothing logically wrong about it.
     
  8. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    为了“强调再强调”,我会使用“又再”。
     
  9. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    I did a bit search. 又再 is used by some people. There are also people who think it is wrong. I didn't find a reliable source formally say this is right or wrong.

    I'm not sure it is a simple repetition/redundancy/emphasis/etc. I think it is probably related to dialectical/regional usages.

    To me, 又再 is always wrong (to the level of being incomprehensible). I wouldn't say this even by mistake.
     
  10. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    我都已經重覆好幾遍了,你要我說一回? ==> 挺順口的。
    你昨天已經說了好幾遍了, 現在又再說一回,就不怕他耳朵長繭,大腦長痔瘡?==> 好像也行。
     
  11. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    你又要、我再说
    又 and 再 modify different verbs with different subjects, which is different from 又再.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  12. retrogradedwithwind Senior Member

    Chinese
    I did some searching and got the following results.

    又 is used for the past actions, and often followed by 了.
    他又说话了。he spoke again.

    再 is used for the future.
    请再说一次。

    Negation
    又+没/不

    再+没/不
    没/不+再
     
  13. tedfromtoronto Senior Member

    Toronto
    bilingual CE/AE, understand BE
    Thank you to all who contributed their time and thoughts.
     
  14. lingkky Senior Member

    chinese
    that's true 又 is to used to describe something happened again in the past.
    And 再 is for furture and is always used to request people to do something again.
    For example
    请你再说一遍。(please talk once again)
    It request someone to talk in the future.

    请你又说一遍。This sentence is totally wrong and never exist since it is impossible to request people to do something in the past.
     
  15. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    The rule can be much more complicate than this. I think we have enough threads for 又/再 issue. Like this one:
    又 / 再
    In the previous thread I've suggested exceptions of the general rule:
    等他回来我又要做一次。 -又 for a future tense.
    我试了试,不行;再试,还是不行。 -再 for a past tense.
     
  16. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    又 "back again" (韻補: 又, 復也) ==> returning (爾雅: 復,返也) to a previous condition (e.g., 他又被騙了), state (e.g., 他又睡著了), or experience (e.g., 他又上吊了).

    再 "once more, anew, still" (說文: 一舉而二也; 玉篇: 兩也; 廣韻: 重也,仍也) ==> performing an action once more or another time (e.g., 你再上吊, 我就...), or continuing a condition (e.g., 你再不聽, 我就...) or state (e.g., 你再睡, 我就...).
    等他回来我又要做一次 ==> 又 "returning back to a previous state" + 要做一次 "the mental state of wanting to do something once")。
    等他回来我要再做一次 ==> 要 "want to" + 再 "anew" + 做 "do once".
    再试(了一次) tried it once more, or 再试(了幾次) tried it several times more
    又+没/不 not returning back to a previous condition, state, or experience (e.g., 他又不吃了 = 又 + 不吃 "a condition of refusing to eat").
    再+没/不 not continuing a condition or state. 没/不 negates the condition (e.g., 再不聽话 = 再 + 不聽话).
    没/不+再 not doing an action another time. 没/不 negates the repetition of the action (e.g., 不再解釋 = 不 + 再次解釋).
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  17. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich, Switzerland
    English, 中文
    I agree with SuperXW in #15. I can't imagine there being anything out of place with his examples.

    我明天又飞伦敦了。这件事等我回来之后再详谈吧。 (future)

    他吐了一口鲜血之后,又昏了过去。当他再醒来的时候,天已经亮了。 (past)

    To take up the point raised in #16, I think dictionaries are a good source of guidelines but that's all they are - guidelines. Forums such as this one exist because it's inevitable that disputes arise in many of the language grey areas, and having native speakers step forward to share their views and engage in discussions is the best way to iron out any differences in understanding. Not all incongruities can be settled for a happy ending of course, but there's always some new knowledge to be gained in the process. Also, it's possible that dictionaries could fall behind in their updates to properly reflect the prevailing usage of words and phrases, and a language forum is often the best place to get corroboration.
     
  18. peng0551 New Member

    chinese-china
    I think 又再 not only emphasizs the repeated actions, it has the other meaning except the literal meaning.
    中文有句话叫“话外之意”

    for example, 我都已經重覆好幾遍了,你又要我再說一回?. Except the literal meaning, it has the other meaing that I don't want to say again.
    他又再说了一遍. He say something one time. Due to some reason, he say again.
    他依依不舍,回过头来又再看了一眼。He does not want to leave.

    FYI
     
  19. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    再 ==> to resume an unfinished matter; to follow up
    再醒来 = 再度醒来; 再 = 再度 "once more"
    Compare: 又昏了过去 ==> 又: returning to a previous condition (昏过去).
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  20. peng0551 New Member

    chinese-china
    You will know that it is often used in chinese by searching corpus. One of corpus links http://www.cncorpus.org/CCindex.aspx(Select the radioButton 模糊匹配 when searching)
     
  21. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    I take back my words. 又再 is not "always" wrong. 此后又再辗转相传、先嫁一夫后又再嫁一夫、又(再行)、又(再次)、又(再看一看)、又(再三)、又(再度)、又(再一次) etc are definitely correct. Basically, if the pause is between 又 and 再 (and 再 comes together with the following word) and 再 is explicitly stressed, it can sound correct. What I wouldn't accept was to consider 又再 as a word consisting of two synonyms (which may not be what you guys meant).
     
  22. KK_Tse Member

    Chinese - Hong Kong
    Both 再 and 又 indicate "another occurrence" of a process.
    With 再, it is a "temporal otherness": we have two (or more) occurrences of a process located at different time points.
    With 又, we have to do with a kind of "notional otherness": we have two (or more) occurrences of a process related to different poles of definition.

    Temporal otherness entails weak alterity: other than the time difference, the occurrences are just the same. As time points are sequential by nature, with 再, the occurrences cannot take place at the same time.

    Notional otherness entails strong alterity: it is the same on the one hand but not really the same on the other.

    Since they don't rely on the time to make the difference, the occurrences can happen at the same time: 他下个月到外国读书,到时没有父母管束,一定会又喝酒又抽烟。 “喝酒” and "抽烟" are different things, but they are the same as far as bad habit is concerned.

    Because of the strong alterity (i.e. same but not really the same), examples with 又 often come with a concessionary tone, or a controversial tone in the least. This is particularly obvious when the occurrences involve different subject persons as poles of definition:

    - 你看,他又犯同样的错误,死性不改。"The fact that he did the same thing wrong again annoys me. He should have done the thing differently."
    - 你明天又飞伦敦?你不是前两天才回来的吗?“Same trip again? I thought you would at least do something different this time..., take a rest at home or spend a few days in a resort."

    This brief discussion is based on some general language facts such as temporal occurrences, notional occurrences, weak alterity, strong alterity... etc. A thorough study on 再 and 又, which are very interesting indeed, will involve a closer look at the syntactic and contextual distributions of the two words.
     
  23. lisawang123 New Member

    Chinese-China
    First, you need to know the difference of 再 and 又.

    1) 再 means“again”,can be used to repeat the same action in the future which haven’t happened yet; 2) 又 means “again” too, but is used for the past to emphasize the event had already happened.

    For example:

    服务员,再来一杯啤酒。 When I finished a cup of beer, I want to order one more, I can say “Waiter, one more, please.” So here I should use “再”。

    老师,可以再说一次吗? The teacher had asked me a question, but she spoke very fast and I didn’t get it, here I can say “Teacher, could you please say it again?” The teacher haven’t said it again yet, So here is “再”。

    你怎么又迟到了? Yesterday I was late, my boss was a little bit angry, and today I was late again, he asked me “Why did you late again?” I was late, this event had happened this morning, so here we should use “又”。

    我这次又没通过考试。 Last time I didn’t pass the exam, and this time I failed again. I got my report and I knew I didn’t pass the exam either. So here we use “又”。

    So you need to use "又" in this dialogue.

    A: 现在恢复得怎么样了?

    B: 没问题了,又可以爬山了。

    [link to commercial site removed by mod]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2016

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