厳しさを知る黒猫だった

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I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
2. From 小学館漢和辞典:自分の能力の限界を知る
Why don't we use 知った・知っている?

よろしくお願いします。
 
  • Strutter

    Senior Member
    Japanese.
    I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
    1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
    2. From 小学館漢和辞典:自分の能力の限界を知る
    Why don't we use 知った・知っている?

    よろしくお願いします。
    It seems to be a difficult and subtle question. So this is one possibly translation.

    1.世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
    (There was) A cat who just knew the world is not so easy to live in.(personified)

    and if

    世間の厳しさを知っている黒猫だった。
    (There was) A cat who already knows the world is not so easy to live in.

    世間の厳しさを知った黒猫だった。
    (There was) A cat who just recognized the world is not so easy to live in.

    2.自分の能力の限界を知る
    I just recognized what I could do and couldn't.

    and if

    自分の能力の限界を知っている
    I already know what I could do and couldn't.

    自分の能力の限界を知った
    I recognized what I could do and couldn't.

    In addition, 自分の能力の限界を知る
    A man who knows what he could do and couldn't.

    Why don't we use 知った・知っている?
    My answer is "According to the situation"

    Thanks.
     
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    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    I don't know how to understand the 知る in these two sentences.
    1. From here, the last picture: 世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。
    The scrawny black cat comes to know the world is a tough place after a few slaps by the big grumpy cat.

    2. From 小学館漢和辞典:自分の能力の限界を知る
    This must be the definition of an entry or a subentry in the dictionary. I would be 100% sure about my judgement if the entry/subentry had been provided as part of the context and background information (Forum Rule #3). Still I am fairly sure that it is the definition for a word that means "come to know one's limits."

    The answer to your question is now clear:
    Why don't we use 知った・知っている? Because that choice would make the verb stative while the sentences need an action verb.
     
    Strutter san and Flaminius san, thank both of you.

    About the second sentence, I double checked my dictionary. There are two versions of this book. In the 2nd version, There are only 3 examples using しる. The sentences after "/" are Chinese translations.
    知る
    (2)〔認識・理解する〕清楚,了解
    ▲ 自分の能力の限界を~/清楚自己能力的大小.
    ▲ 子を持って~親の恩/養儿方知父母恩.
    ▲ 敵を知り,己を知れば百戦危うからず/知己知彼,百戰不殆.
    I can understand the 知る in "子を持って知る親の恩".
    In 敵を知り,己を知れば百戦危うからず, the 知り is neutral.
    As for "自分の能力の限界を知る", according to the Chinese translation, it means 自分の能力の限界が分かっている

    In another version of this dictionary, there are more examples using 知る(I just copy 4 lines.):
    2((理解する))懂得;[経緯を経て]理解;[よしあしなどを]识别.
    健康のありがたみを~/懂得健康的宝贵; ~人ぞ~/只有真正懂得的人才知道.
    3((知りあう))[はじめて]认识;[親しく]熟识.
    どうしてあの人を~ようになったのですか/(你)怎么认识他的?
    However, I have also noticed that, some of these examples are not completed sentences although there is a 'period' mark. So the first sentence may be uncompleted.


    Flaminius san,
    The author chose 知る because at that time the cat had not finished the process of 知る yet?
    Is there a -ing form for 知る?
     
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    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    1.世間の厳しさを知る黒猫だった。

    In my opinion, this "知る" means to find out through experience.

    The black cat finds out harsh side of life(by experiencing the bitterness of life).


    Reference:
    経験する。体験して身につける。「酒の味を―・る」「世の中の苦労を―・らない」
    http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=知る&stype=0&dtype=0
     
    Last edited:

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    quote: Is there a -ing form for 知る? uquote


    This page explains pretty good the differences between ている and た:
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...」+is+just+a+regular+action&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

    Excerpt:

    English is weird in that "know" is supposed to be a verb but is actually describing a state of having knowledge. Japanese is more consistent and 「知る」 is just a regular action verb. In other words, I "knowed" (action) something and so now I know it (state). That's why the English word "to know" is really a continuing state in Japanese, namely: 「知っている」.
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Oh, this 漢和辞典 is a 中日辞典. :) I thought you were quoting from a kanji dictionary where the sentence is part of the definition of an entry such as 知命.
    As for "自分の能力の限界を知る", according to the Chinese translation, it means 自分の能力の限界が分かっている
    Anyway, if 清楚 is a stative verb, the Chinese translation is wrong. 知る is always an action verb.

    However, I have also noticed that, some of these examples are not complete sentences although there is a 'period' mark. So the first sentence may be uncompleted.
    The examples are full sentences, all but 知る人ぞ知る. This is an adnominal phrase meaning "known to a select number of people."

    The author chose 知る because at that time the cat had not finished the process of 知る yet?
    Is there a -ing form for 知る?
    The non-past form 知る is a result of ellipsis. One could write 知った猫だった but the past marker in the main clause obviates the one in the subordinate clause.

    Forgive my penchant for abstraction but there is a typical device for dramatising here.
    [Relat. (N) ____] Nだった。
    The bracketed clause is a relative clause whose implicit subject is N, which is also the subject of the main clause ending with だった. This construction is used before the plot of a story comes to a hiatus — before a change of scenes or at the end of the story — in order to conclude the scene with an image of N, which is typically the main character, doing or experiencing something. Since an image is a static thing, the audience is expected to wait for a new development in the story with the character "petrified" at a dramatic moment (if the story ends there, they are free to be with the character as long / little as they want).

    Needless to say, I could have pointed at the last frame of the manga and note it has the least motion among the frames. :)
     
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    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    知る is always an action verb.
    At the risk of opening a can of worms, here is a discussion about exceptions to the above.

    First, consider this:
    In addition, 自分の能力の限界を知る
    A man who knows what he could do and couldn't.
    限界を知っている人 is fine too but note that the stative sense can be captured by 知る in a subordinate clause (or at least in an adnominal/relative clause). In fact, -teiru as the sign of imperfective aspect is a modern thing. Many historical expressions still keep 知る in the older tense/aspect system. Some of them are apparently quotes from the classical literature:
    士は己を知る者のために死ぬ (translation of 士爲知己者死)。
    Here, 知っている者のため is impossible because it is a set expression.

    Others can use both 知る and 知っている in the adnominal clause but the former sounds far suitable:
    恥を知る人
    Not being a quote, it could theoretically use 知っている but I rarely see that. It would somehow deprive the expression of the solemn, age-old sentiment. Could it be "keeping old wine in old wineskins"?
     

    Strutter

    Senior Member
    Japanese.
    Let me write in Japanese.

    ~る、~ているの違いについてです。この違いを英語で説明できる気がしないので、日本語で書きます。


    それを知っているのは僕だけだ。の方が、それを知るのは僕だけだ。より(僕には)しっくりきます

    同様に、(左の方がしっくりくるという意味です)
    その情報を知るのは彼だけであった。 その情報を知っているのは彼だけであった。
    テストの点数を知っているのは先生だけだった。 テストの点数を知るのは先生だけだった。

    以上の例では、どちらの文も意味はほぼ同じで、結局はリズムしだいなのかなぁという気もしますが、例えば

    父が死んだことを知ったのは、ついこの前だった。 父が死んだことを知っていたのは、ついこの前だった。 

    のような文だと、右側はなんだかおかしいですよね。

    また、

    テストの点数を知ったのは先生だけだった。 テストの点数を知っていたのは先生だけだった。

    だと、どちらも、意味は通りますが、意味するところは違いますよね。(この場合では、右側の方が断然使われうる表現でしょう。)

    そしてまた、”知る”にかかわらず、多くの日本語で、~る、~ているの、が非常にあいまいだと思います。

    稼ぐのが君で、使うのが僕。 稼いでいるのが君で、使うのが僕。

    右側のように、~ている、~るの組み合わせでも、自然だと思います。

    勉強していたのが君で、遊んでいたのが僕。 勉強していたのが君で、遊んだのが僕。

    だと、ん~・・・ほんとに若干、左側の方が適切な気がします。

    正直、~る、~ているの組み合わせや、両者の違い等を考えていたら、色々な例が浮かびすぎて混乱してしまいました:confused:

    ここら辺は、日本語を学ぶ上で、本当に難しい点だと思います。
     
    Almostfreebird san, Flaminius san, Strutter san, thank you very much.
    I did know the Japanese tense/aspect could be so complex in a adnominal clause.
    I searched the internet and found this page.
    It will be a long time before I could understand the posts you write and the page I found.

    また質問が有ったら、よろしくお願いします。
    皆さん、どうもありがとう御座いました。
     
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