子曰:「人而不仁,如禮何?人而不仁,如樂何?」

< Previous | Next >

Zbigniew

Member
polish
Hello, this is Confucius:
I have translated it into: man without virtue, rituals (manners) according to what? man without virtue, music according to what?
this would mean: what's the value of rituals without virtue in heart? what's the value of music, without virtue?
Am I right?
 
  • NewAmerica

    Banned
    Mandarin
    Your version is ambiguous.
    Since there have already been quite a few English versions of Confucian Analects, it seems not necessary for me to translate it. Here is one that I picked:

    The Master said, "If a man be without the virtues proper to humanity, what has he to do with the rites of propriety? If a man be without the virtues proper to humanity, what has he to do with music?"

    Source
     

    Zbigniew

    Member
    polish
    Thank you, I know the translation you cited. I posted the thread being not sure if this translation is exact, or rather loose interpretation, what the author could mean.. That's why I tried to translate it more literally and ask if I understand well the content.Thanks
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    If you are looking for a literal translation...I honestly think the literal meanings of most classic Chinese scripts are ambiguous. That's why it takes time for people to "study" them. Then, different people would get different enlightenment...
    That's the beauty of it, maybe.
    I'm not a professional. I just take 如...何 as "how about..." But I could be totally wrong.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    The Master said, "If a man be without the virtues proper to humanity, what has he to do with the rites of propriety? If a man be without the virtues proper to humanity, what has he to do with music?"
    Chinese translation of the English version: 人若無仁, 他與禮何干? 人若無仁, 他與樂何干?

    My interpretation is closer to OP's, and here is my analysis:
    如禮何 literally "do rituals what"; 如樂何 literally "do music what"
    如 (transitive verb "do") like "do" in "do me a favor" or "do music justice"
    禮/樂 (direct object) like "me" in "do me a favor" or "music" in "do music justice"
    何 (indirect object "what") like "a favor" in "do me a favor" or "justice" in "do music justice"

    A transitive VP can be interpreted as "VP + a prepositional phrase", for instance:
    give me the book = give the book to me
    Thus, 如X何 can be understood as "what to do to X"-- that is, 能把X怎麼辦 in modern Chinese.
    For instance, = 奈我何 = 能把我怎麼辦 "What can you do to me?"
    《列子·湯問》以君之力,曾不能損魁父之丘, 太行王屋? "What can you do to 太行 and 王屋?"
    《列子·湯問》以残年余力,曾不能毁山之一毛,其土石? "What can you do to those rocks and stones? How can you manage those rocks and stones?"
    《論語·子路》不能正其身,正人 "What can you do to 正人?"
    《詩經.秦風》如何如何,忘我實多。 "What to do? What to do? 怎麼辦怎麼辦"

    Thus,
    如禮何 (literally "do rituals what") = What can he do to/for 禮? What can he contribute to 禮?
    如樂何 (literally "do music what") = What can he do to/for 樂? What can he contribute to 樂?
    In other words, whatever he does no longer has a meaning for or value in 禮樂. So I think Zbigniew came to the right interpretation although it was derived from a wrong analysis.
     
    Last edited:

    NewAmerica

    Banned
    Mandarin
    原文今译:孔子说:“一个人没有仁爱之心,遵守礼仪有什么用?一个人没有仁爱之心,奏乐有什么用?”
    这是常见理解,我认为可取;其意义明确,逻辑清晰。那个英文译本也是这个意思。
    基于这个判断,我认为楼主的译法相当含糊。
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    如禮何 (literally "do rituals what") = What can he do to/for 禮? What can he contribute to 禮?
    如樂何 (literally "do music what") = What can he do to/for 樂? What can he contribute to 樂?
    Correction:
    如禮何 (literally "be able to do rituals what") = What can he do to/for 禮?
    如樂何 (literally "be able to do music what") = What can he do to/for 樂?
    如 = 奈 (如我何 = 奈我何) = 耐 (古同“奈”,奈何) = 能 (《康熙字典》能或作耐; 能耐)
    如X何 = 能把X怎麼樣 or 能對X做什麼
    《詩經.秦風》如何如何,忘我實多。 What can I do? What can I do? 能怎麼辦? 能怎麼辦?
     

    retrogradedwithwind

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    I have consulted two versions of ancient explanations of 论语. (注疏和论语注疏本怎么翻译?)

    论语集注-朱熹-免费电子书-在线阅读-网易云阅读
    子曰:"人而不仁,如礼何?人而不仁,如乐何?"游氏曰"人而不仁,则人心亡矣,其如礼乐何哉?言虽欲用之,而礼乐不为之用也。"程子曰:"仁者天下之正理。失正理,则无序而不和。"李氏曰:"礼乐待人而后行,苟非其人,则虽玉帛交错,钟鼓铿锵,亦将如之何哉?"然记者序此于八佾雍彻之后,疑其为僭礼乐者发也。

    卷三·八佾第三_《论语注疏》
    子曰:“人而不仁,如礼何?人而不仁,如乐何?”(包曰:“言人而不仁,必不能行礼乐。”)
    [疏]“子曰”至“乐何”。○正义曰:此章言礼乐资仁而行也。“人而不仁,如礼何?人而不仁,如乐何”者,如,奈也。言人而不仁,奈此礼乐何?谓必不能行礼乐也。

    Interestingly, both of the two don't literally explain the meaning of that sentence, implying that it was so clear and understandable to ancient people that no explanations were needed.

    But we can still speculate how ancient people understood it by conscientiously reading what You and Li said in the above.


    游氏曰"人而不仁,则人心亡矣,其如礼乐何哉?言虽欲用之,而礼乐不为之用也。"
    李氏曰:"礼乐待人而后行,苟非其人,则虽玉帛交错,钟鼓铿锵,亦将如之何哉?"

    Seems that it means 礼乐虽作而不为不仁者所用。
    礼 and 乐 are used by 不仁者 but 不仁者 can't use it actually because 不仁者 are not the right people to use it.

    And skating offered a great understanding from a perspective of basic grammar.
     
    Last edited:

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    I think it's quite clear that Skatinginbc's interpretation is right...
     

    NewAmerica

    Banned
    Mandarin
    《汉书·艺文志》:“昔仲尼没而微言绝,七十子丧而大义乖。”
    也就是说,从古代开始就认为孔子所说微言大义,读者想精确理解并非易事。

    找到一个来自台湾的译本:

    子曰:「人而不仁,如禮何。人而不仁,如樂何。」

    孔子說:「一個人失去了仁心,禮節還能發揮什麼作用呢?一個人失去了仁心,所演奏的音樂,又能達到什麼效果呢?」

    比较一下Skatinginbc的译本"人若無仁, 他與禮何干? 人若無仁, 他與樂何干?", ”與禮何干“含义相对不是很明确,请Skating拓展一下这四个字的意义。
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    Skatinginbc的译本"人若無仁, 他與禮何干? 人若無仁, 他與樂何干?", ”與禮何干“含义相对不是很明确,请Skating拓展一下这四个字的意义。
    That was my Chinese translation of the English translation that you quoted.
    他與X何干 corresponds to English "what has he to do with X" (see #2).
    ”與X何干“含义相对不是很明确 ==> It was exactly my criticism of that English translation.
     

    NewAmerica

    Banned
    Mandarin
    比较一下大陆版本与台湾版本:
    (大陆版):孔子说:“一个人没有仁爱之心,遵守礼仪有什么用?一个人没有仁爱之心,奏乐有什么用?”
    (台湾版):孔子說:「一個人失去了仁心,禮節還能發揮什麼作用呢?一個人失去了仁心,所演奏的音樂,又能達到什麼效果呢?」

    两者在意义上如出一辙。
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    两者在意义上如出一辙。
    Don't you think they tally with what I said: "Whatever he does no longer has a meaning for or value in 禮樂"? 人若不存仁心, 無論他做什麼(e.g., 穿上禮服, 敲打樂器), 都沒有真正的禮樂意義或價值 (i.e., 李氏曰: 虽玉帛交错,钟鼓铿锵,亦将如之何哉, see #8). And that concept basically corresponds to OP's interpretation: "What's the value of rituals without virtue in heart? what's the value of music, without virtue?" ==> 不具真正的禮樂意義與價值.

    没有仁爱,遵守礼仪有什么用 = 没有仁爱,遵守礼仪有什么意義與價值
    失去仁心,演奏音樂有什么效果 = 失去仁心,演奏音樂有什么意義與價值

    Let 不仁之人 = 猴子:
    猴子鞠躬行禮, 敲鑼打鼓, 能對禮樂做什麼 (= 其如禮樂何哉)? 不能做什麼!! 因為那是雜耍作秀, 沒有真正的禮樂意義與價值。神聖的禮樂也不會因有猴子行禮奏樂而失去價值。 雜耍猴子不能為禮樂做什麼, 也不能對禮樂做什麼 (= 如禮樂何).
    猴子"雖欲用之, 而禮樂不為之用也" = 猴子雖想遵禮奏樂, 但禮樂卻不被它所用, 因其所行之禮非禮, 所奏之樂非樂, 猴穿人衣, 終究非人也。
     
    Last edited:
    < Previous | Next >
    Top