屯: 刚柔始交而難生 · 動乎險中 ·

julianeliasjara

New Member
Spanish
Hello again!
So, I've decided to finish my investigation on the Gua Ci, and move on to the analysis of the Tuan Zhuan of Hexagram 3. Zhun.
The Tuan Zhuan goes like this:

屯: 刚柔始交而難生 · —Zhun: the firm and the flexible (Qian & Kun) start interacting [and/then (?)] [difficult {in giving?} birth/difficulties arise] —
動乎險中, 大亨貞 · —Moving through perils center (?); great success {in?} perseverance.
雷雨之動满盈 · 天造草昧 · 宜建侯而不寧 · —Thunder and rain's {之?} movement is complete and overflowing. (Usually translated as "the atmosphere is filled with the movement of thunder and rain). Heaven creates carelessly in darkness (?). It is appropriate to designate marquises (宜建侯), not to relax {be restless?}.

So that is a very rudimentary attempt of translation out of my ignorance of Chinese linguistic nuances.

A bit of context just in case: this text comments on the main text of Hexagram 3, Zhun, from the Yijing, and the text goes like this: 屯 : 元亨利貞 · 勿用有攸往 · 利建侯 · This has been discussed in a previous thread.

I hope you can help me with your awesome contributions to achieve a solid translation for these passages! 😄
 
  • Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    It will be more helpful if you tell us your understanding, and it is hard if you translate or understand it word by word.
     

    julianeliasjara

    New Member
    Spanish
    It will be more helpful if you tell us your understanding, and it is hard if you translate or understand it word by word.
    Oh, I intended to give my understanding in the translations I constructed... But I'll try again.

    屯: 刚柔始交而難生

    This sentence means that hexagram 3.屯 ䷂ (referred to as 難生) is the hexagram (卦) that follows "the firm" (刚) and "the flexible" (柔), which refer to hexagram 1.乾, the Creative Power, Heaven ䷀, and hexagram 2.坤, the Receptive, Earth ䷁. The terms 刚 and 柔 are analogous to yin and yang. They are used because 乾䷀ only has yang lines (阳爻) and 坤䷁ only has yin lines (阴爻). So 刚柔始交而難生 could mean: "Qian and Kun start to interact, and then comes Zhun (難生)".

    Nonetheless, I am specially interested in how one should read 難生. Does it mean "a difficult birth"? Or does it mean "difficulties are born"? Even if it most evidently makes an allusion to hexagram 3.屯, which is often translated as "difficulty in the beginning", and interpreted as a "difficult birth", I would like to know how that particular sentence should be read, or could be read.

    動乎
    險中大亨貞


    This sentence makes an allusion to both main trigrams. The subject trigram (下卦) is ☳, which means 動, "to move", and the top trigram (上卦) is ☵, which means 險, "danger". So 動乎險 could be read as "moving through danger", or "to move in danger".
    Now, in the whole sentence, the issue to me seems to be in how to punctuate it. Could it be read as «動乎險中, 大亨貞»? In this case, I would understand it like "moving through peril's center, great success; be persistent". But that just doesn't quite convince me. I'm more keen in punctuating as follows: «動乎險. 中大亨貞» In this case, it would seem to say something like "moving through/in danger. Being central (brings) great success; be persistent".

    But, honestly, I don't know if there is a correct way of reading the sentence or not. That is why I marked 險中, because I don't know if they should be read together as "the center of peril", or if they should be read separately. 中, by the way, seems to me, is making an allusion to the 5th line (五爻) as the center of the top trigram.

    雷雨之動满盈 ·


    In this last sentence, we once again find an allusion to the trigrams: 雷, "thunder", refers to ☳, and 雨, "rain", refers to . Both characters «雷雨» can also be understood as a storm. «雷雨之動» can be translated as "thunder and rain's movement". In this regard, I have to ask about the use of «之». Is it working like an apostrophe works in english? 满盈 also work together, with the meaning of "full up". This sentence is usually translated as "The atmosphere is filled with thunder and rain". It could also be making an allusion to the chaos that comes from both energies moving together: "Thunder and Rain's movement fill it all".

    天造草昧 ·


    This seems to be a sentence with cosmogonic connotations. 天造 "heaven creates", seem to be in connection with 元 and 建 (as explained in a previous thread by contributors). As for the word 草, "carelessness", it seems to be in connection to the Daoist understanding of how nature operates. There is actually a philosophy channel in youtube called "careless wandering". But it also means "roughly", and "grass" so it could have other ways to be translated. It could just be making an allusion to ☳, which also means "violent" or "impetuous". 昧, "darkness", could also be making an allusion to ☵, which means "darkness", "obscurity", but, in a more philosophical sense, it could refer to how Heaven (天=乾䷀) creates without being seen, in darkness. So, the sentence would stand as something like: "Heaven creates without care and in the dark". One cannot access Heaven's obscure process of creation.

    The last sentence is not really important, we have discussed it in the same thread linked above.
     

    Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    刚柔:
    阴阳也,犹如乾坤、昼夜、天地或动静。
    Rigid & soft : is Yin & Yang, like Qian & Kun, day & night, heaven & earth, or dynamic and static.

    All things in heaven and earth run in such a rigid and soft process. All things have these two opposite characteristics, such as the spring and summer of the year for germination and growing is 刚, autumn and winter for the purpose of harvesting, collecting and storing is 柔. Also like, human beings work during the day as 刚 and sleep at night as 柔.

    《易·系辞上》:“刚柔者,昼夜之象也。”
    孔颖达 疏:昼之象 is 阳, is shining, all things are born and firm. 夜之象 is 阴, is dark and soaked, all things are weak.

    刚柔始交而难生:
    刚 and 柔 are two opposing forces. when they meet, they are against each other. But as we know, too rigid and easy to fold, too soft and easy to bend(太刚易折太柔易曲). Therefore these two opposing forces support each other and reinforce each other. But when they just met, in the period of creating, they just start interacting , difficulties arise, it is definitely not a easy thing.
     

    skating-in-bc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    屯 (the adversity that a seedling encounters when emerging from a seed and trying to break through the soil crust;《說文.屯》難也, 象艸木之初生, 屯然而難, 从屮貫一, 一, 地也, 尾曲): When the firm (earth) and the supple (seedling) start interacting with each other, trials naturally follow. Moving through perilous odds, those (seedlings) that stay upright can attract a great amount of positive energy (e.g., nutrition) and eventually make a big break-through.
    屯: 刚柔始交而難生 · —Zhun: the firm and the flexible (Qian & Kun) start interacting [and/then (?)] [difficult {in giving?} birth/difficulties arise] —
    動乎險中, 大亨貞 · —Moving through perils center (?); great success {in?} perseverance.
    而 = thus (因而)
    難 = difficult, not easy
    生 = to grow out of and develop (《康熙字典.生》出也;【易·觀卦】上九觀其生, 君子無咎, 【註】生, 猶動出也;《說文解字.生》進也, 象艸木生出土上)
    難生 = not easy to grow (in that environment)

    乎 = in (於)
    中 = middle, midst
    ...乎...中 = ...in the midst of...
    動乎險中 = move in the midst of perils

    亨 = (1) a situation where good things/people come and work together (【易·乾·文言】亨者, 嘉之會也; 善物聚會一起, 人才濟濟一堂); (2) a state of being free from impediments (《康熙字典》通也).
    大亨 = a great situation where (with the help of all the good things/people that come and work together) one finally breaks free from all the impediments and henceforth everything goes smoothly (猶大通, 順暢無阻)
    貞 = upright, righteous (【易疏·乾卦·元亨利貞】貞, 正也)。
    大亨貞 = great prosperity comes to the righteous (《易·臨》大亨以正; 孔穎達疏:大得亨通而利正)
    I am specially interested in how one should read 難生. Does it mean "a difficult birth"? Or does it mean "difficulties are born"? Even if it most evidently makes an allusion to hexagram 3.屯, which is often translated as "difficulty in the beginning", and interpreted as a "difficult birth", I would like to know how that particular sentence should be read, or could be read.
    I think "difficulties arise" is good enough for translation purposes. To know the precise meaning of the text, we however need to judge whether it should be read as "難nan4(noun)生", "難nan2(adjective)生", or "難nan2(verb)生(noun)".
    (1) 難(nan4; noun)生 ==> 難(nan4) = 患 'tribulation'
    (2) 難(nan2; adjective)生 ==> 難(nan2) = 不易 'difficult, not easy'
    (3) 難(nan2; verb)生 ==> 難(nan2) = 使困難 'make difficult'

    Which one? The clue comes from the definition of "屯" (《說文.屯》難也):
    《汉典.屯》〈〉艰难;困顿 [hard]曰屯。刚柔始交而难生。——《易》==> It is listed in the dictionary as an adjective and the sentence "刚柔始交而难生" is explicitly given as one of its examples. It cannot be any clearer. The answer should be (2) 'difficult, not easy'.

    Now, move on to the definition of "生" (verb): (1) 出 (《說文.出》進也, 象艸木益滋, 上出達也;《說文解字注》引伸爲凡生長之偁) 'to grow out of and develop'; (2) 產 'to give birth, produce, breed'; (3) 活 'to live, remain alive'; (4) 養 'to rear'; (5) 造 'to create'. ==> I pick (1) because it is the meaning of "生" (本義:草木從土里長出來) that is most fitting to the original meaning of 屯 (象艸木之初生) and it works well in the sentence in question.
    雷雨之動满盈 · 天造草昧 · 宜建侯而不寧 · —Thunder and rain's {之?} movement is complete and overflowing.
    This is another sentence. Too much to ask in one thread. I prefer discussing only one sentence at a time.
     
    Last edited:

    Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    Nonetheless, I am specially interested in how one should read 難生. Does it mean "a difficult birth"? Or does it mean "difficulties are born"? Even if it most evidently makes an allusion to hexagram 3.屯, which is often translated as "difficulty in the beginning", and interpreted as a "difficult birth", I would like to know how that particular sentence should be read, or could be read.
    屯 (the adversity that a seedling encounters when emerging from a seed and trying to break through the soil crust;《說文.屯》難也, 象艸木之初生, 屯然而難, 从屮貫一, 一, 地也, 尾曲)
    :thumbsup: 【屯】:
    屯字在甲骨文中的字形,很像植物种子萌生、破土而出的形状。
    《说文解字》对于屯字的解释:“屯,难也。象艸木之初生。屯然而难。从屮貫一。一,地也。尾曲。”【艸cǎo,是草木的总称;屮chè,本义是草木刚长出来。】
    观察“屯”字之形,“一”象征大地,“屮”象征草,尾部的弯钩象征草根的屈曲,也就是草木刚刚破土而出时,草根要伸展还不能马上伸展的样子。

    [屯]: The character of Zhun in the 甲骨文 inscription is like the shape of a plant seed.
    Observing the shape of the word "屯", "一" symbolizes the earth, "屮" symbolizes the grass, and the curved hook at the tail symbolizes the buckling of the grass roots, that is, when the grass and trees have just broken out of the earth, the grass roots will not stretch immediately.
    D3827A9A-15D6-40AF-B183-B7B9BC398EE2.png


    屯卦 describes the process in which things begin from the origin and develop into rudimentary forms. A seed sprouts from the soil, the writer completes the opening stage of a novel, the management of a company in the early stages of entrepreneurship, and the birth of a fetus from the mother's belly, they are difficult.

    Could it be read as «動乎險中, 大亨貞»? In this case, I would understand it like "moving through peril's center, great success; be persistent".
    This is my opinion "动乎险中,大亨贞".

    《屯》的外卦坎为险,内卦震为动,所以说“动乎险中”,"动乎险中"描述屯卦的卦符。
    (下卦又称内卦,上卦又称外卦)

    The inner hexagram for the earthquake震☳,the lower shock for the thunder雷, indicating the movement; the outer hexagram for 坎☵, the upper ridge for 云, indicating danger (the lower also known as the inner hexagram, the upper also known as the outside hexagram), there are dark clouds in the sky, thunder rolling. From the generation of cloud to the formation of rainfall, many conditions are needed, including the movement and collision of clouds, the change of temperature, the interaction between water droplets and dust in clouds. After a long period of brewing, Rain Water landed. The formation process of Rain Water is used to describe the difficult birth process of things. For example: the birth of the fetus, the mother has the labor pain, the baby is born in danger, but no matter how difficult it is ,need to give birth to the baby.The outer hexagram of "坎" is dangerous, and the inner hexagram of "震" is moving, so it is "moving in danger".

    The ancient society subdivided the annual climate change into 72 seasons, one "候" every five days. The farming plan for the whole year is in full accordance with the timing. This is the "利建侯" , keeping pace with the times and adjusting at any time.Therefore, as far as a new life and new organization is concerned, "建侯" is almost the first major event .Only by properly arranging its own structure, no matter how rapidly changing outside, can make corresponding counter measures at the first time.

    亨,通也。To make his goal (元) clear and smooth (亨),the need for "云行雨施" "足以合礼" "嘉之会也 " ls to press a certain etiquette, in the company is to follow the enterprise management system and rules of the case, Yin and Yang and harmony(阴阳结合), up and down communication(上下交流), heaven and earth cloud rain (天地云雨)integration of resources(整合资源), so that we can achieve the goal.

    贞,正也,正固、坚定、诚信。
    It is easy to be a "元亨利" for a while, but it is difficult to have a long "元亨利". "天行健,君子以自强不息", only by persevering, firm belief, maintaining good faith , we can start and end well, and be able to live up to "足以干事"

    大亨贞,宜建侯而不宁。
    大亨贞 associate with 元亨利贞
    宜建侯=>利建侯
    不宁=>不能安宁无事
    We have discussed it a lot.

    孔颖达 疏:「初动险中,故屯难;动而不已,将出于险,故得大亨贞也。」
    孔颖达 疏:It is the beginning of the journey,it is difficult and danger. But if you move, this danger will come to pass, and will 大亨贞.

    《象曰》:云雷屯;君子以经纶。
    "经纶" here refers to the sorting of silk strands and other things. "Jing" and "Lun" are tools or methods for finishing silk strands, arrange the silk threads called 经, weave the silks into the rope called 纶。
    "When the thunder and lightning strike, (the gentleman) should arrange everything in a clear and orderly way."

    With the combination of heaven and earth and each other, everything has a good origin, a solid foundation, this is assured (元亨利贞); However, because this is just your start, you are still very young, You can't just do it (勿用), and you can't be like a headless fly, rushing around everywhere (有攸往), but you also can’t do nothing (而不宁), should sit down calmly, first do a good job of organizing, establishing rules, establishing governance, and carefully doing all the internal governance work (利建侯/宜建侯).
     

    Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    雷雨之動满盈
    震为雷为动,坎为雨。《序卦》:“屯者,盈也。故曰"雷雨之动满盈"。

    "雷雨之动满盈" is to explain the meaning of divination again from the point of view of natural image. The natural image of 震 hexagram is thunder, and the natural image of 坎 hexagram is water and rain.
    This sentence is usually translated as "The atmosphere is filled with thunder and rain". It could also be making an allusion to the chaos that comes from both energies moving together: "Thunder and Rain's movement fill it all".

    From the generation of cloud to the formation of rainfall, many conditions are needed, including the movement and collision of clouds, the change of temperature, the interaction between water droplets and dust in clouds. After a long period of brewing, Rain Water landed.
    《周易说卦》:“万物出乎震,震东方也”.
    the kinetic energy of 震 hexagram filled with heaven and earth, can give birth to all things. Rain water of 坎 hexagram will fall but not fall(将落未落), the heaven and earth wrapped in it, water can moisturize all things, seemingly bad natural environment is full of vitality.

    In this regard, I have to ask about the use of «之». Is it working like an apostrophe works in english?
    I think the answer is yes.
    So, the sentence would stand as something like: "Heaven creates without care and in the dark". One cannot access Heaven's obscure process of creation.
    I totally disagree with this part.

    天造草昧:
    草属震(为旉、为萑苇、为蕃鲜),言始创也;昧属坎(坎为隐伏、为月),言未眀也。故曰“天造草昧”。草昧,指万物萌芽状态。
    《易·屯》:"天造草昧。" 孔颖达 疏:"言天造万物于草创之始,如在冥昧之时也。"

    草:起草,draft,make a graft.
    创:originate
    草创: starting drafting, starting to create, just in the beginning.
    昧:蒙昧,天地未形成时混沌幽暗的状态。
    The state of chaos and darkness before the heavens and the earth were formed.

    天造草昧 means at the time of creation, before the heaven and earth were formed, all things are in the state of chaos and darkness(unclear).

    These are my understanding and probably wrong.Hope can help.
     

    skating-in-bc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    I think 難 = 難 'hard to grow out of a difficult phase' (出 as in 破繭而出, 脱穎而出, 破殼而出, 破土而出)
    《說文.》進也, 象艸木生出土上。=《說文.》進也, 象艸木益滋, 上出達也。
    《說文.屯》難也, 象艸木之初生, 屯然而難, 从屮貫一, 一, 地也, 尾曲)

    I also think《屯》is really a fitting description of 重耳's life (671BCE-628BCE). As is known, it is one of the most inauspicious hexagrams (Note: 屯、坎、蹇、困是四大凶卦) that one can get. Only those who stay upright (貞) or on the right way (正道) can survive the ordeals and come out () with a boom, rising to great success. 重耳's life was truly difficult (), if not hell-like. His father drove him out into exile; his stepmother and brothers wanted him dead. After being met with repeated assassination attempts, he did not hold any big dream, except to live, hopefully, an easy life. During his 19-year exile, he had miserably fled from one country to another, so many times and many places that it seems to me that he had visited every corner of the known world at the time. But there was something about him that set him apart, something "right" (正) about him. That "something" was 貞 (uprightness, righteousness, rightfulness). He was like a magnet attracting talented people (e.g., 趙衰、狐偃、魏武子、先軫、胥臣) as well as powerful ones (e.g., 秦穆公、楚成王), many of whom thought he was God's chosen one (天命在身) to the throne and for the maintenance of the world order. He quietly and perhaps unknowingly amassed a great amount of soft power (亨) during his exile, and one day, when the time came, he was propelled by his supporters onto the world stage as a promising political figure like a new life popping out of the earth.
    The "Chinese" character (秦系文字; "Chin-" representing 秦 Qin) "屯" is polysemous--denoting multiple meanings of different origins. It corresponds to at least two distinct forms in oracle bone script. The one that I think is relevant to "難也" is "从屮貫一, 一, 地也" as in 甲3588合30286無名組 and 佚791合21130 (Sorry, the images are not downloadable but can be found in "屯_甲骨文_汉字演变", "《漢典》屯_甲骨文", and "《甲骨文比較研究》". 華強 (2011) argues in《甲骨文比較研究》that "屯字的甲骨文本義是: 萌生, 在地下" and that 周易六十四卦裡的屯卦 is related to this meaning. The other form, which depicts "一粒種子, 上長嫩枝, 下長細根" (a seed growing roots and a stem) and is more commonly referenced, pertains to the notions of "春" and "蠢" (as in 蠢蠢慾動; e.g., 屯夷方 = 蠢動的夷方).
     
    Last edited:

    julianeliasjara

    New Member
    Spanish
    Hello there! I'm sorry for the delayed response, but I've been busy with some other stuff (plus I needed to take a break for a day or two). So, here go some responses on things you've been contributing:
    刚 and 柔 are two opposing forces. when they meet, they are against each other. But as we know, too rigid and easy to fold, too soft and easy to bend(太刚易折太柔易曲). Therefore these two opposing forces support each other and reinforce each other.
    This seems obvious, but it is easily overlooked. The simple fact that 刚柔 are OPPOSING forces should be enough to understand why there are difficulties in their first encounter. I can't find the citation right now (I'm sure it was in the Wilhelm translation), but he mentions that there was this very antique spring ritual in China in which a lot of man and woman would stand on opposing sides of a river, and then mimic a "war" in which they supposedly fought (symbolically, I hope) and mated at the same time. If I manage to find the citation, I'll share it here with you.
    難生 = not easy to grow (in that environment)
    Now, move on to the definition of "生" (verb): (1) 出 (《說文.出》進也, 象艸木益滋, 上出達也;《說文解字注》引伸爲凡生長之偁) 'to grow out of and develop'; (2) 產 'to give birth, produce, breed'; (3) 活 'to live, remain alive'; (4) 養 'to rear'; (5) 造 'to create'. ==> I pick (1) because it is the meaning of "生" (本義:草木從土里長出來) that is most fitting to the original meaning of 屯 (象艸木之初生) and it works well in the sentence in question.
    This makes sense to me. In the context of 刚柔始交 to be born and to grow are not easy tasks (難生). Many translators do make 難生 into "difficult birth", in the sense of a mother giving birth for the first time and having difficulties. I should add that, in the lines of this sign we do find a reference to a "maiden" (六二 : [...] 女子貞不字。十年乃字。The whole sentence is longer). Also, as a nuclear trigram (互卦) there is 坤卦, the Mother, and 震卦, the first-born son. So, it would make sense to translate it as something related to "giving birth", as well. Yet, I do prefer your translation, it makes more sense to me in that particular context. About the definition of 生, I find all of the meanings somehow conceptually related. They all make a reference to the creative powers (grow and develop, give birth, produce, live, create, raise...). At some point, they are all the activities one would expect a mother (柔;坤) and a father (刚;乾) to perform for their children. Also, it is, by all means, the creative activity of nature effects on all living beings.
    乎 = in (於)
    中 = middle, midst
    ...乎...中 = ...in the midst of...
    動乎險中 = move in the midst of perils
    Perfectly clear, thank you. So, whenever I find "...乎...中", it should be read as "in the midst of"?
    亨 = (1) a situation where good things/people come and work together (【易·乾·文言】亨者, 嘉之會也; 善物聚會一起, 人才濟濟一堂); (2) a state of being free from impediments (《康熙字典》通也).
    大亨 = a great situation where (with the help of all the good things/people that come and work together) one finally breaks free from all the impediments and henceforth everything goes smoothly (猶大通, 順暢無阻)
    貞 = upright, righteous (【易疏·乾卦·元亨利貞】貞, 正也)。
    大亨貞 = great prosperity comes to the righteous (《易·臨》大亨以正; 孔穎達疏:大得亨通而利正)
    Again, thank you, this is very clear. Also, I did not know 亨 could mean "(1) a situation where good things/people come and work together".
    This is another sentence. Too much to ask in one thread. I prefer discussing only one sentence at a time.
    I swear I'll start bringing up specific phrases from now on 😅

    Ida1 said:
    The ancient society subdivided the annual climate change into 72 seasons, one "候" every five days. The farming plan for the whole year is in full accordance with the timing. This is the "利建侯" , keeping pace with the times and adjusting at any time.Therefore, as far as a new life and new organization is concerned, "建侯" is almost the first major event .Only by properly arranging its own structure, no matter how rapidly changing outside, can make corresponding counter measures at the first time.
    I still think this is a brilliant interpretation, and even though 建侯 is actually used as "appoint rulership" and so on, I strongly believe the astronomical/seasonal interpretation has a lot to offer. Also, this: "Only by properly arranging its own structure, no matter how rapidly changing outside, can make corresponding counter measures at the first time.", perfectly puts into words what I couldn't properly formulate, but always had in my mind, about 屯. So, again, thank you for this fragment of light 😇
    孔颖达 疏:It is the beginning of the journey,it is difficult and danger. But if you move, this danger will come to pass, and will 大亨贞.
    I don't fully agree here. Even though 屯 does represent a form of very careful movement, I believe it strongly suggests not advancing, but rather staying put and accumulating strength. So, when Zhun passes, and you can once again move freely, then 大亨贞 comes. But I could be wrong about this. I just feel that "movement in the midst of peril", i. e., 屯, is more a recommendation of not moving, than of moving. But it could also be true that if one moves and manages to survive, great rewards will come.
    With the combination of heaven and earth and each other, everything has a good origin, a solid foundation, this is assured (元亨利贞); However, because this is just your start, you are still very young, You can't just do it (勿用), and you can't be like a headless fly, rushing around everywhere (有攸往), but you also can’t do nothing (而不宁), should sit down calmly, first do a good job of organizing, establishing rules, establishing governance, and carefully doing all the internal governance work (利建侯/宜建侯).
    Brilliant. This is a good synthesis of what 屯 represents to me.
    Rain water of 坎 hexagram will fall but not fall(将落未落)
    I'm not catching the sense of this. Could you expand on what this means?

    天造草昧:
    草属震(为旉、为萑苇、为蕃鲜),言始创也;昧属坎(坎为隐伏、为月),言未眀也。故曰“天造草昧”。草昧,指万物萌芽状态。
    《易·屯》:"天造草昧。" 孔颖达 疏:"言天造万物于草创之始,如在冥昧之时也。"

    草:起草,draft,make a graft.
    创:originate
    草创: starting drafting, starting to create, just in the beginning.
    昧:蒙昧,天地未形成时混沌幽暗的状态。
    The state of chaos and darkness before the heavens and the earth were formed.

    天造草昧 means at the time of creation, before the heaven and earth were formed, all things are in the state of chaos and darkness(unclear).
    Wow. This actually makes a whole lot more of sense. Yes, totally! I wrote an essay a couples of weeks ago, when i first started to study Zhun, and I actually made some cross–references with occidental tradition imagery making reference to this same process of creation. See:
    fludds-creation-theory-royal-astronomical-societyscience-photo-library.jpg
    wpsE159.tmp.png
     
    Last edited:

    skating-in-bc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    a mother giving birth for the first time and having difficulties.
    Dystocia (i.e., difficult childbirth, labor, or delivery) is called ''難產" in Chinese.
    in the lines of this sign we do find a reference to a "maiden" (六二 : [...] 女子貞不字。十年乃字。
    According to《漢典》, the "字" in "女子貞不字, 十年乃字" means "懷孕" ('get pregnant').

    The verb "字" can also serve as a participle as in the phrase "字牝" ('pregnant animal').
    In the context of 刚柔始交 to be born and to grow are not easy tasks (難生). Many translators do make 難生 into "difficult birth", in the sense of a mother giving birth for the first time and having difficulties. I should add that, in the lines of this sign we do find a reference to a "maiden" (六二 : [...] 女子貞不字。十年乃字。
    The phrase "十年乃字" actually does NOT support the interpretation of "難生" as "difficult birth" (難產 difficult labor or delivery). I don't think any unborn baby or laboring mother can survive a difficult birth (難產) that takes "十年" ('ten years'; as in "十年乃字") to complete.

    My interpretation of "難生" concerns the feeling of being stuck in difficult situation (e.g., 十年不字 unable to get pregnant during 10 years of marriage) and hard to get out of it (e.g., one day, when the time comes, becoming pregnant like a miracle).

    不字 (as in 女子貞不字): 不孕 unable to get pregnant
     
    Last edited:

    Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    I can't find the citation right now (I'm sure it was in the Wilhelm translation), but he mentions that there was this very antique spring ritual in China in which a lot of man and woman would stand on opposing sides of a river,
    It makes sense. We always say 男刚女柔 and 刚柔始交 refers to birth. I know a spring ritual that is similar to the one you mentioned, called "上巳节"。
    and then mimic a "war" in which they supposedly fought (symbolically, I hope) and mated at the same time.
    This may be a misunderstanding of 伊其相谑. I think 相谑 means 互相调笑挑逗 , more like flirting in English.
    But I could be wrong about this. I just feel that "movement in the midst of peril", i. e., 屯, is more a recommendation of not moving, than of moving
    "move" has two different meanings here. :D
    1. move forward, a big action.
    难生、险中 and 勿用 imply that we shouldn’t make a big action and don’t move forward hastily.
    2. take action carefully and planned, don’t do nothing.
    But 不宁、有攸往 and 利建侯 imply that we need 动乎险中,we can’t do nothing.

    Rain water of 坎 hexagram will fall but not fall(将落未落), the heaven and earth wrapped in it,
    I want to express 将明未明 first.
    将明未明 refer to the moment that the dawn is coming soon. But there is a saying in China "黎明前最黑暗", which means that the period before dawn is the darkest time of the day.
    将落未落 tends to mean the same. This is probably the most difficult time.
    I wrote an essay a couples of weeks ago, when i first started to study Zhun, and I actually made some cross–references with occidental tradition imagery making reference to this same process of creation. See:
    Yes, Exactly! :thumbsup:
     

    skating-in-bc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    We always say 男刚女柔 and 刚柔始交 refers to birth.
    How so? 剛(男) and 柔(女) start (始) to 交 (交往/性交). It often refers to "mating" (intercourse, copulation), not "birth". It is a big jump from mating to birth.
    copulation (i.e., mating) --> conception --> gestation --> birth
    An example of "mating" was given in post #9 as follows:
    there was this very antique spring ritual in China in which a lot of man and woman would stand on opposing sides of a river, and then mimic a "war" in which they supposedly fought (symbolically, I hope) and mated at the same time.
     

    Ida1

    Senior Member
    Chinese-Qingdao
    How so? 剛(男) and 柔(女) start (始) to 交 (交往/性交). It often refers to "mating" (intercourse, copulation), not "birth". It is a big jump from mating to birth.
    copulation (i.e., mating) --> conception --> gestation --> birth
    An example of "mating" was given in post #9 as follows:
    I have expressed 刚柔 in detail in post 4#. 刚柔-男女-阴阳 =>催生万物.
    If you look carefully, you would find I have said that this "mating" part may be a misunderstanding.
     

    julianeliasjara

    New Member
    Spanish
    "move" has two different meanings here. :D
    1. move forward, a big action.
    难生、险中 and 勿用 imply that we shouldn’t make a big action and don’t move forward hastily.
    2. take action carefully and planned, don’t do nothing.
    But 不宁、有攸往 and 利建侯 imply that we need 动乎险中,we can’t do nothing.
    I believe that 勿用有攸往, on the one hand, means precisely, "don't move forward", meaning, don't abandon your position just yet. While 利建侯, on the other hand, could refer to the type of action that we should take. This action should not imply abandoning ones position, but rather fortifying it, assuring it. In 潛龍勿用 the same significance is suggested. The Yang is still at the bottom, hence, don't go (勿用). The meaning this suggests to me is an inward action. Again, the same seems to be suggested in a whole lot of first lines (初爻), and specially in a hexagram like 24 ䷗, where everything seems to move around "staying in the first line", and by extension, "moving back" or "rectifying", being so that all other lines than the 1st seem to regret, at some point, having left the 1st position. Hexagram 3 has only 1 different line from hexagram 24, and both share that first yang line, that seems to mean (usually at least), that energy hasn't yet been fully deployed, and so one should stay put and wait, even if one wants to move forward (震卦, ☳, usually as the bottom trigram). So, since one has some energy and needs to apply it, it is better to apply it inwards, and not move forward, because energy is not enough, and the path is not firm enough (too many yin lines).
    So, I mainly agree with you! I'm only developing the idea a bit further. Thanks as always for contributing!
     
    Top