工場内で vs 工場内に

[all-time newbie]

日本語教科書からの文句です。

一つは: 工場内でも発電しようというものです。
もう一つは：工場内にダムのようなものを作るってことですか？

質問: どうして「で」が一つ目の文句に用いられており、「に」が二つ目の文句に用いられているのか？二つともに動詞があるんではありませんか？(Why is de used in the first sentence while ni is used in the second sentence? Aren’t they both used to describe an action which, according to grammar rules, requires de instead of ni? )

 

[gengo]

一つは: 工場内でも発電しようというものです。
もう一つは：工場内にダムのようなものを作るってことですか？

質問: どうして「で」が一つ番の文句に用いられており、「に」が二つ番の文句に用いられているのか？二つともに動詞があるんではありませんか？(Why is de used in the first sentence while ni is used in the second sentence? Aren’t they both used to describe an action which, according to grammar rules, requires de instead of ni? )

In the first, "でも" should be thought of as a unit, rather than で+も. It means "even." Your image is too small to read (and won't enlarge, for some reason), but that sentence means something like "[something about] wanting to generate power even within the plant/factory." Or, "inside the plant itself." More context would surely improve that translation.

In the second one, に is used because it refers to a location, and the translation is something like "Are you talking about building a dam or something in the plant?"

 

[SoLaTiDoberman]

(場所A）で発電する and (場所B）に（対象物C）を作る are set phrases.

工場内に発電する
工場内にも発電する

工場内でダムを作る 　This is not completely wrong, and acceptable, but にsounds better.

 

[Joschl]

It's about the difference between the particles "de" and "ni" in their locative usage, isn't it? I think all-time newbie is wondering why the particle "ni" is used instead of the particle "de" in the sentence in which a dynamic verb like "tsukur-u" occurs, especially because foreign learners are usually taught that the particle "ni" is used with a stative verb like "ar-u" to indicate a location where something exists:

工場内にダムのようなものがあるってことですか? (place where something exists)
工場内で 発電しようというものです。(place where something takes place)

I think it will be acceptable to analyse "でも" in the above context as "で"+"も". The focus particle "も" there can simply mean 'also, too':

工場内で(_)発電しようというものです。

工場内でも 発電しようというものです。

It might be helpful for all-time newbie to analyse a sentence like

教室で 黒板に 例文を書く。

in which the particles "de", "ni" and a dynamic verb co-occur because the usage of the particle "ni" in the above sentence and that of the particle "ni" in the sentence

工場内にダムのようなものを作るってことですか?

are exactly the same:

に (Ⅰ) 動作・作用の成立に深く関わる場所を表す。
㋑ 物事が生じる発生・出現・新設などの場所を表す。
「枝先に芽が出る」「スカートにしわができる」「庭に小屋を建てる」明鏡国語辞典

 

[all-time newbie]

It's about the difference between the particles "de" and "ni" in their locative usage, isn't it? I think all-time newbie is wondering why the particle "ni" is used instead of the particle "de" in the sentence in which a dynamic verb like "tsukur-u" occurs, especially because foreign learners are usually taught that the particle "ni" is used with a stative verb like "ar-u" to indicate a location where something exists:

I think it will be acceptable to analyse "でも" in the above context as "で"+"も". The focus particle "も" there can simply mean 'also, too':

It might be helpful for all-time newbie to analyse a sentence like
in which the particles "de", "ni" and a dynamic verb co-occur because the usage of the particle "ni" in the above sentence and that of the particle "ni" in the sentence
are exactly the same:

This is very helpful. Thanks a lot.

 

[Joschl]

all-time newbie, I'm quite sure that "に AND で FOR LOCATION (IN SIMILAR SENTENCES)" on the website "ToFuGu" will help you understand the locative usage of the particles "de" and "ni" in the context above better

 

[all-time newbie]

all-time newbie, I'm quite sure that "に AND で FOR LOCATION (IN SIMILAR SENTENCES)" on the website "ToFuGu" will help you understand the locative usage of the particles "de" and "ni" in the context above better

very helpful, especially the perspective of “attachment”. This perspective makes it easier to understand why に can be used when it comes to building or creating new things.
The way I see it from the new perspective, I think basically it depicts a picture where you are adding/attaching something new to the other thing. In the case of the example sentence I mentioned above, I guess when a new dam is built, it can also be seen as something new added to the factory, And that’s why に is used in that sentence.
Am I understanding it right, does it make sense?

 

[Joschl]

I actually referred exactly to the explanation written in the paragraph "に AND で FOR LOCATION (IN SIMILAR SENTENCES)", that comes after the paragraph "に OR で FOR LOCATION" that you seem to refer to.

 

[all-time newbie]

I actually referred exactly to the explanation written in the paragraph "に AND で FOR LOCATION (IN SIMILAR SENTENCES)", that comes after the paragraph "に OR で FOR LOCATION" that you seem to refer to.

Yes, I understand. In the part you specified, two example sentences were given: 庭に花を植えるand庭で花を植える。
The interpretation and explanation of the first one was sorta along the same lines of the “attachment” perspective it described above.

 

[Joschl]

Because I want to have a sentence in which both the particle "de" and "ni" co-occur, I will modify one of the sentences that you quoted above:

庭で 花壇に 花を植える。

I will replace "庭 (yard)" in the first sentence of the original explanation on the webpage of the site "ToFuGu" with "花壇", the nominal head of the ni-phrase in the new example sentence above, and hope that the following explanation will help you understand the example sentence better.

Here, each particle expresses a different focus. The particle に places focus on "花壇" as the final destination where these flowers were planted. It may even emphasize being planted directly into the ground in the yard. The particle で on the other hand, marks "庭" as the venue in which the flower planting activity occurred. [...].