差別化に大変

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thetazuo

Senior Member
Chinese - China
アトラクション要素として、店内にメリーゴーランドでも設置したのだろう。場末の居酒屋は他店との差別化大変なんだろうな。その経営努力、わからんでもない。

Hi. What is the function of the に here?
Thank you.
 
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  • Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    差別化に大変だ:
    It's yet to become part of the "good usage," but the author doesn't seem to have made a slip of the pen. It is a colloquialism to use -ni to introduce the aim of an endeavour for 大変だ (cf. this page):
    最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だったけれど、
    I would use a verb like 苦労する or 苦心する (e.g., 差別化に苦心しているんだろう, 理解されるのに苦労したけど), but I could understand the above as a kind of abbreviation from:
    理解されるのに大変な思いをしたけれど、

    Come to think of it, -ni for the aim of an endeavour is used with another adjective (I queried the NHK sites for the standard usage):
    ネタニヤフ氏は…求心力回復に躍起になっている。
    自治体もさまざまな特典をつけて勧誘に躍起
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    So this に equals ために (目的), right?
    Not really because 最初はすごく理解されるために大変だった sounds odd.
    場末の居酒屋は他店との差別化大変なんだろうな。
    Having read Flaminius's comment, I'd still go with the idea that this に is supposed to be が because 他店との差別化 indeed seems to me to be a subject.
    If I'm asked to translate it into English, I'd say:

    Differentiating their izakaya restaurant from others is difficult.

    I assume Flaminius's point is that verbs such as 苦労する take a に-marked object, which can be translated into English as:

    差別化に苦労する
    struggle with differentiating...

    苦労する seems to be an intransitive verb and hence it cannot take a を-marked object.
    This is just why に is used when this kind of verbs are used.
    In addition, I think 最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だった should be translated as:

    It was difficult first to make us understood.

    If you'd like a clear answer to the question of what this に is equal to, I'd say it corresponds to the English infinitive marker "to".
     
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    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    You should steer clear of 目的. It has nothing to do with the discussion here.
    So the に in the op still indicates 目的 but is not interchangeable with ために.
    No. As I said above, it's mistaken for が. Things like 目的 are totally irrelevant here.
    The に in the op is thus neither relevant to 目的 nor interchangeable with ために.

    The に in 差別化に苦労する is the dative に.
    And sorry I made a mistake above:
    In addition, I think 最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だった should be translated as:
    I was supposed to say 最初はすごく理解されるのに苦労した here.
    As with the に in 差別化に苦労する, this に is also the dative に.
    The に in 最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だった is, just as the one in 他店との差別化に大変, mistaken for が.
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    The に in 最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だった is, just as the one in 他店との差別化に大変, mistaken for が.
    Instances of [動詞連体形] のに大変だ or [名詞] に大変だ are too numerous to be mistakes for another more legitimate construction. Whether or not these constructions are illegitimate from a prescriptivist point of view, they are on their own. My #3 supra was a suggestion at finding their parallel in 躍起だ and speculating their origin in 大変な思いをする.
     

    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again.
    You should steer clear of 目的. It has nothing to do with the discussion here.
    OK.
    the dative に.
    What is “dative に”?
    aim of an endeavour
    If this doesn’t refer to 目的, what else can it mean? And I’m wondering how Flaminius would translate the op example and 最初はすごく理解されるのに大変だったけれど, since you two seem to disagree over the function of the に?
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    No, thetazuo, that's not the point we are in disagreement. I will continue the previous discussion.

    Japanese has quite a few adjectives of emotion that takes as the subject either 1. the one who undergoes the emotion and 2. the entity that causes one to harbour the emotion. One example is 楽しい (1. 毎日ゲームができて楽しい; 2. ゲームが楽しい).

    Now, kanadaaa and I disagree over whether or not 大変だ supports an undergoer subject. They don't but I do think it supports an undergoer subject.

    This maybe taken as obiter dicta, but I will give you an example adjective that seems to be undergoing a reverse change. The adjective エロい is usually "for a person to be lascivious," or to be thinking about sexual stimulus. Lately, however, it has been increasingly used "for another person or the person's body to cause sexual arousal." E.g., 彼女のおっぱいがエロい.
     
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    thetazuo

    Senior Member
    Chinese - China
    Thank you.
    Yes, I understand your explanation of these adjectives of emotion being able to take either an undergoer subject or the entity. But how is this related to the usage of に? You think, say, 毎日ゲームができているのに楽しい works? :confused:
     

    Techref

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Mandarin
    You think, say, 毎日ゲームができているのに楽しい works? :confused:
    I would say
    毎日ゲームをするのが楽しいです。- Everyday I take pleasure in playing games.

    Probably the above would work as a question, like
    毎日ゲームができるのに!? 楽しい? - Everyday you get to play games ya know!? Is it fun?
     
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