得了:理查德得了心脏病

Konstantinos

Senior Member
Greek - Athens
1994年,理查德得了心脏病,...

This is from the Standard Course Book of HSK5, section 21.

What is the meaning of 得了 and how is it pronounced?

Baidu translate: de le, had
Google translate: de2 liao3, suffered
My attempt: 得 means to get or to obtain and it is pronounced as de2 and 了 means: "Used after a verb to indicate perfective aspect (action completion)" but wiktionary says that it is pronounced either le, liao3 or lou.

What is your opinion?
 
  • Hi, Konstantinos!

    得了 here means that Richard got or caught a disease (in this case, some sort of heart disease). 得 is a verb and is pronounced "dé" here, as you said.

    Hope this helps! :)

    My attempt: 得 means to get or to obtain and it is pronounced as de2 and 了 means: "Used after a verb to indicate perfective aspect (action completion)" but wiktionary says that it is pronounced either le, liao3 or lou.
    That's right! Mind you, 了 often confuses me and I'm unable to say with 100% certainty whether that definition corresponds here. Let's wait to see what other people say. :)

    EDIT: Sorry, my first reply was a bit hasty! I've corrected my original message.
     
    The use of 了 has been debated in Chinese linguistics for decades and it is oftentimes still obscure.
    了 is used a as verb: it means understand, like in the saying 一目了然: understand at first glance or can as as sort of modal verb in combination with the particles 得/不: 我去得/不了, meaning I can/can't go and other meanings (clear, wise... this is rather rare) or lexicalised usages like in 了不起:extraordinary. In this case it is pronounced liao, displaying the full vocalism.

    If used as particle, however, the pronounciation is weekend to le, indication of the desemanticisation. In this case there are three usages:
    1) following a verb , indicating the perfective aspect: 我喝了两瓶啤酒。I drank (finished) two bottles of beer.
    2) a sentence particle, at the end of sentence, indication some sort of change in the situation: 下雨了:It has started to rain.

    Hence, it sometimes can be used to distinguish between definiteness or indefinitesness of noun phrases (as Chinese has no articles and completion is an indication of definiteness): 人来了: The person (I have been waiting for) has arrived vs. 来人了: somebody (I don't who) has arrived. Topicality may play a role here too, of course.

    3) a modal particle: 太好了!: Great!, 别烦我了!: Don't get on my nerves! In such cases pronounciation may vary. Me feeling is, that lo (quite rare) indicates a rather positive mood, but there may be regional variations.

    btw: Even more bizarre is the etymology of 了. According to the classsical dictionary 说文解字 the character originally depicted a baby without arms. No idea, what the relation is, if there is any connection beyond the obvious resemblance between the two old ancient characters for infant and liao at all. The meaning however is explained as being identical to 尥: "the backward kick given by a horse" or "angry".

    No wonder, the connection between 了and 尥 (九:9 + 勺: spoon - Chinese characters drive me crazy) is also obscure. It may be case of false borrowing, as today 尥 is pronounced liao4. One could speculate whether today's meanings of 了 could be derived from this original one: a sudden change in mood (perfective) and the mood itself (leading to the modal use). The use as a modal verb may (with a good deal of imagination) also be derived form the meaning "change". But this is pure speculation.


    In the case of your example 理查德得了心脏病 you are right, the best explanation of 了 seems to be marking of perfect aspect. But we could go a step further and ask whether we can move 了 to the end of the sentence (理查德得心脏病了) and if so, how 了 as sentence particle would affect the meaning. Of course, this is possible and the difference is rather straightforward:

    As the three dots in your example indicate (1994年,理查德得了心脏病...) the focus of the conveyed meaning is on the perfectivity of the "action" of getting sick, implying that there is more to the story: Richard had a heart attack...and then he underwent a surgery, died, recovered or lost his heart altogether in San Francisco.... In contrast 了 as a sentence particle (理查德得心脏病了) shifts the focus to the change in Richards personal situation as a result from the "action": Richard has had a heart attack....and he is still suffering from it - end of Richard's story so far.

    The different uses of 得 are worth being looked into, too. However, I still hope I could provide some useful information.
     
    Even more bizarre is the etymology of 了.
    《漢典》has a better explanation of its etymology:
    liǎo
    〈動〉
    (1) (象形。从子,無臂。小篆字象嬰兒束其兩臂形。初生的嬰兒,往往束其兩臂而裹之。本義:束嬰兒兩臂)
    (2) 手彎曲: 了,尥也。從子無臂象形。——《說文》。按,猶交也。手之攣曰了,脛之縶曰尥。
    (4) 結束,了結。小喬初嫁了。—— 宋· 蘇軾《念奴嬌·赤壁懷古》
    le
    〈助〉
    用在動詞或形容詞後,表示完成 [used after the verb or adj. to indicate completion]。
    The pictogram 了 depicts a baby whose arms are bundled up, rather than "a baby without arms".
    A bundled baby whose arms are not visible in plain sight
    1694358644178.jpeg


    A baby without arms
    1694362370858.jpeg

    According to the classsical dictionary 说文解字 the character originally depicted a baby without arms.
    《說文》从子無臂 means that the character 了 follows the shape of the pictogram 子, however without the "arms" depicted in the pictogram 子. It does NOT mean that the pictogram 了 depicts "a baby without arms."

    Small Seal Script Character 子
    1694360573188.png


    Small Seal Script Character 了
    1694361212625.png

    The meaning however is explained as being identical to 尥: "the backward kick given by a horse" or "angry".
    That's quite misleading, as misleading as saying: "《說文》嬮, 好也, so the meaning of is explained as being identical to : 'to like' or 'be fond of'" when it actually means 'fine, good, beautiful', not 'to like or be fond of'.

    "The backward kick given by a horse" is a noun phrase, but 了 (as in 了戻 or its original meaning 束嬰兒兩臂) is certainly NOT a noun.

    As clearly stated in《漢典》, 了 concerns restriction (束 as in "束嬰兒兩臂") of the arms (手之攣曰了), while 尥 of the legs (脛之縶曰尥). What they have in common is the connotation of "結糾紾縳不直伸" as explained by《說文解字注》. So the correct interpretation of《說文.了》尥也 should be: 了 like 尥 means "being tangled or bound and unable to stretch straight" as in the expression 了戻 (tangled, intertwined).
    One could speculate whether today's meanings of 了 could be derived from this original one: a sudden change in mood (perfective) and the mood itself (leading to the modal use). The use as a modal verb may (with a good deal of imagination) also be derived form the meaning "change". But this is pure speculation.
    The original meaning of 了 has nothing to do with a change of mood. It connotes "糾" (《說文解字注.了》糾紾縳不直伸) and "拘" (《漢典.了》本義:嬰兒兩臂). It thus later expands to the meaning of (e.g., 了結)——The notion of "end" or "completion" is expressed by the concept of tying an end knot () to "restrict" () or prevent the end from unraveling. The development from a verb meaning 'to end, complete' (e.g., 宋.蘇軾《念奴嬌》小喬初嫁了liao3) to a particle indicating the perfective aspect (e.g., 小喬出嫁了le) is very natural.
     
    1. Both "had" and "suffered" refer to the same meaning of 得 in the context of "had/suffered the illness".
    2. "le0" is the common past particle. Google's "liao3" is wrong, or at least not natural.
    3. When used as a past particle, "le0" is common and natural. "liao3" sound is only used when reciting some classic literature.
    4. 得了 de2 liao3 can be another word unrelated to this context. It's an expression means "impressive", with an alternative form 了得 liao3 de2.
     
    @skating-in-bc:Thank you for the specification! Very interesting.
    s clearly stated in《漢典》, 了 concerns restriction (束 as in "束嬰兒兩臂") of the arms (手之攣曰了), while 尥 of the legs (脛之縶曰尥). What they have in common is the connotation of "結糾紾縳不直伸" as explained by《說文解字注》. So the correct interpretation of《說文.了》尥也 should be: 了 like 尥 means "being tangled or bound and unable to stretch straight" as in the expression 了戻 (tangled, intertwined).
    Yes, this makes sense.

    《說文》从子無臂 means that the character 了 follows the shape of the pictogram 子, however without the "arms" depicted in the pictogram 子. It does NOT mean that the pictogram 了 depicts "a baby without arms."
    You are right, I've been careless with my wording. And in the end, what are characters able to depict anyway?


    One more thing that interests me: You are very assertive about the different parts of speech:
    "The backward kick given by a horse" is a noun phrase, but 了 (as in 了戻 or its original meaning 束嬰兒兩臂) is certainly NOT a noun.
    How do you generally dinstinguish between the different parts of speech in (ancient) Chinese, especially when it comes to isolated characters? In this case the word "kick" is only a noun by virtue of the embedding grammar, in isolation the word "kick" is probably more likely to be identified as a verb. Why should Chinese be different?
     
    in the end, what are characters able to depict anyway?...How do you generally dinstinguish between the different parts of speech in (ancient) Chinese, especially when it comes to isolated characters?
    The pictograph 子 depicts 'a swaddled baby with arms out' and originally means 'baby, child' (e.g.,《詩·大雅》居然生子).
    1694465557010.png
    1694465937118.png
    1694466000948.png
    1694466053632.png


    We know it is originally a noun because (1) it functions as a noun in oracle bone texts (e.g.,《合.94正》婦好有子) and (2) it represents 'a baby/child' in other characters of the oracle bone script such as 孕 ('to bear a baby/child, be pregnant').
    1694467864184.png
    1694456893637.gif
    1694457024622.gif

    The pictogram 了 is a later invention, first attested in the small seal script of the Qin-Han period. It copies the graph of 子 (a swaddled baby with arms out), however, without the "arms out" part. In other words, it is 'swaddled with arms in'.
    1694467431213.jpeg
    1694467494324.png

    We know it cannot originally be a noun because (1) no Chinese dictionary (e.g., 國語辭典, 漢典) lists it as a noun, (2) its synonym 尥 (《說文.了》尥也) is a verb (《方言》以足鉤之爲尥), (3) the syntax of 郭璞《方言注》相了戻也 suggests a verbal function of the character 了 in the word 了戻 (《說文解字注.了》凡物二股或一股結糾紾縳不直伸者曰了戾), which is synonymous with 了尥 (《漢典.了尥》二物糾結絞纏不直伸的樣子), and (4)《漢典》claims that its original meaning is "束嬰兒兩臂", which is a verb phrase.
    尥 meaning '騾馬等跳起來用後腿向後踢' (as in 尥蹶子) is a modern, dialectal development, which has nothing to do with the original meaning of 了 two thousand years ago.
     
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    No wonder, the connection between 了and 尥 (九:9 + 勺: spoon - Chinese characters drive me crazy) is also obscure. It may be case of false borrowing, as today 尥 is pronounced liao4. One could speculate whether today's meanings of 了 could be derived from this original one: a sudden change in mood (perfective) and the mood itself (leading to the modal use). The use as a modal verb may (with a good deal of imagination) also be derived form the meaning "change". But this is pure speculation.
    Anfangs repräsentierte das Schriftzeichen 了 ein neugeborenes Baby, das in eine Wickeldecke gewickelt war und dessen Arme nicht gestreckt werden konnten. Dann entwickelte es sich zu gebogenen Armen, und schließlich zu zwei miteinander verflochtenen Objekten (Bäume, z.b.) oder gekreuzten Armen und Beinen, was genau das Zeichen 尥 bedeutet.

    Jetzt gehört 尥 genau genommen zu den Dialekten. Tatsächlich wird es im Standardchinesisch nur selten verwendet, während es in einigen Dialekten noch erhalten geblieben ist. Ich denke, im Kantonesischen wird oft der Ausdruck 尥脚 (mit überschlagenen Beinen zu sitzen) verwendet. 了尥 (schwierig/nervig) wird auch schon mal umgangssprachlich gesprochen. Es bedeutet wortgetreu, dass die eigenen Beine beim Gehen miteinander verflochten sind und es schwierig ist, zu gehen.
     
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    雖然有一點離題了,但是我很欣賞這一場討論。 😀
    Anfangs repräsentierte das Schriftzeichen 了 ein neugeborenes Baby, das in eine Wickeldecke gewickelt war und dessen Arme nicht gestreckt werden konnten.


    Indeed, I overlooked this explanation from the 漢典
    象形。从子,无臂。小篆字象婴儿束其两臂形。初生的婴儿,往往束其两臂而裹之。本义:束婴儿两臂)

    Jetzt gehört 尥 genau genommen zu den Dialekten.
    Linguists usually refer to Chinese languages when they talk about the so called dialects Yue, Wu, Min, Hakka...
    The term dialect refers to a level below these Chinese languages. So it would have to specified whether this belongs to common Cantonese or just a local variation of it.

    Interesting line of argument:
    We know it cannot originally be a noun because (1) no Chinese dictionary (e.g., 國語辭典, 漢典) lists it as a noun, (2) its synonym 尥 (《說文.了》尥也) is a verb (《方言》以足鉤之爲尥), (3) the syntax of 郭璞《方言注》相了戻也 suggests a verbal function of the character 了 in the word 了戻 (《說文解字注.了》凡物二股或一股結糾紾縳不直伸者曰了戾), which is synonymous with 了尥 (《漢典.了尥》二物糾結絞纏不直伸的樣子), and (4)《漢典》claims that its original meaning is "束嬰兒兩臂", which is a verb phrase.

    To sum it up: We know it is verb because the dictionary says so. The dictionary says so because its synonym is also a verb. But how do we know this?
    Anyway, it is used as a verb and has the meaning of a verb. A bit circular, isn't it? Unfortunately it doesn't provide any general standard for defining parts of speech, which is the tricky part.

    As far as I know, there was no concept of parts of speech in ancient Chinese. So how to apply these moderns terms to a structurally completely different language, or more precisely: the written form of it? Some linguistis claim that the tones in Chinese are a relic of earlier inflections, right? And other languages with a similar writing system (cf. Naxi, Dongbawen) suggest the idea that the written records may only contain key ideas of a context, e.g. a ceremony that is to performed by a priest. The spoken form needs to be improvised ad hoc. Why should it be different with 甲骨文?
     
    Although English 'kick' can sometimes serve as a noun and mostly as a verb, we know the noun 'kick' is derived from the verb 'kick' because etymologically speaking it is originally a verb, from Middle English kyken 'to strike out with the foot', from Old Norse kikna 'to sink at the knees' and keikja 'to bend backwards'.

    By the same token, although the character 子 can sometimes serve as a verb (e.g.,《史記》齊女子之) and mostly as a noun (e.g.,《荀子》聖王之子也), we know the verb 子 'to adopt as a child' is derived from the noun 子 'child' because it is almost always used as a noun in the oracle bone script.
    there was no concept of parts of speech in ancient Chinese.
    Old Chinese certainly has grammar or syntax (e.g., Subject-Verb-Object), from which we can determine the part of speech of a word in an utterance. That is to say, there actually are parts of speech in archaic Chinese. As a result, when I saw "there was no concept of parts of speech in ancient Chinese", I naturally interpreted it as "it was rather flexible concerning the part of speech of a word in ancient Chinese," like 子 and English 'kick' mentioned above. Despite the flexibility, we can still determine which one is a derivative and which one is the original, and "it cannot be said that the parts-of-speech system in Old Chinese, specifically the period of the I century AD (Note: That's about the time when the pictogram 了 is first attested) is absolutely flexible." "The derivation of nouns from verbs is characteristic process of The Sino-Tibetan languages, whereas the reverse type is exceedingly rare." (Anastasia Durymanova, Nouns and verbs’ syntactic shift: some evidences against Old Chinese parts-of-speech system’s flexibility). Since it is uncharacteristic, the derivation of verbs from nouns often involve tone change (i.e., 破讀, 字音詞化變音) in Middle Chinese or a hypothesized suffix -s in Old Chinese to remind listeners of a change in the part of speech, for example, original 雨 yu3 'rain' (noun) --> derivative 雨 yu4 'to rain' (verb); original 食 shi2 'food' (noun) --> derivative 食 si4 'to eat' (verb); original 蹄 ti2 'hoof' (noun) --> derivative 蹄 di4 'to kick in defence' (verb); original 衣 yi1 'clothes' (noun) ---> derivative 衣 yi4 'to wear' (verb); original 膏 gao1 'grease' (noun) --> derivative 膏 gao4 'to grease' (verb), to name just a few. There is no evidence from Middle Chinese that reflects a suffix -s for 了liao3 in Old Chinese.

    Also, if "了" is originally coined as a noun, we would expect its early attestation to be mostly nouns. As it happens, it is rarely, if ever, used as a noun in its early attestation.
    The dictionary says so because its synonym is also a verb. But how do we know this?
    I didn't say "the dictionary lists it as a verb because its synonym is a verb." I considered its dictionary entries and the part of speech of its synonym two independent justifications. It goes without saying that the assignment of part of speech by the dictionaries is based on attestation in actual texts (e.g.,《方言注》相了戾也).

    How do we know its synonym 尥 is a verb? Because《方言》defines 尥 as "以足鉤之" and《說文解字》as "行脛相交".

    Syntax: verb + pronoun 之
    以足鉤(verb)之曰"尥"(verb)

    Syntax: 相 (表示一方對另一方有所施爲) + verb
    例如: 相送, 相信, 相煩, 相問.
    《羣經音辨》足相躗(verb)曰"蹄"(verb)
    行脛相交(verb)曰"尥"(verb)
    《方言注》相了(verb)戾(verb)
     
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    Ja klar haben wir uns vom Thema entfernt. Ein Beitrag sollte nur eine Frage behandeln. Ich werde versuchen, Ihre Frage kurz und knapp zu beantworten. Wenn Sie weitere Diskussionen führen möchten, ist es am besten, einen neuen Beitrag zu starten.:)

    Linguists usually refer to Chinese languages when they talk about the so called dialects Yue, Wu, Min, Hakka...The term dialect refers to a level below these Chinese languages.
    Einige chinesische Dialektwörter gehen beim Übersetzen in andere Sprachen manchmal verloren. Das ist vielleicht der Grund, warum Sie das Konzept falsch verstanden haben.
    Ich bin kein Fan der Linguistik. Meiner Meinung nach erfinden Linguisten Begriffe nur, weil es ihnen bequem erscheint. Wenn die Chiniesen über Yue, Wu, Min, Hakka sprechen, beziehen sie sich immer auf 方言 (übersetzt als 'dialect' auf Englisch), die zusammen mit Mandarin die chinesische Sprache bilden. Yue, Wu, Min, Hakka gehören zu den 7 Hauptgruppen von 'dialect'. Jede dieser großen Dialektgruppen umfasst Hunderte bis Tausende von Subdialekten, die Chinesen allgemein als 'Name der Region+话' benennen, während es im Englischen keine direkte Entsprechung gibt. Die Übersetzung von '方言' als 'dialect' ist umstritten, sogar unter Linguisten gibt es keine eindeutige Meinung dazu.

    So it would have to specified whether this belongs to common Cantonese or just a local variation of it.
    Ich verstehe nicht, warum das notwendig ist:confused:. Kantonesische umfasst hunderte regionale Dialekte. In der Theorie wäre es unmöglich, jeden einzelnen dieser Dialekte daraufhin zu überprüfen, ob das Wort '尥' verwendet wird. In der Praxis ist das auch überhaupt nicht notwendig, da die Verständigung unter Muttersprachlern des Kantonesischen sehr stark ist. Mit “common Cantonese” meinen Sie vermutlich 'Canton prefecture speech'. Es gibt keine solche Sache wie “common Cantonese/Wu/Hakka/Min”, weil selbst unter den Subdialekten eines großen Dialektes deutliche Unterschiede bestehen. Sie haben jeweils ihre eigenen einzigartigen Aussprachen, Betonungen und Wörter. Einige sind sich ähnlicher als andere, während einige erhebliche Unterschiede aufweisen. In vielen Dialekten gibt es ‘prefecture speech’, das ist die Standardaussprache dieses Dialekts. Das findet sich in den nördlichen Dialekten, im Kantonesischen und auch in den Dialekten der südwestlichen Region.
     
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