戻っていらっしゃいました

[theseus_]

Context:
A: Bさん、木村部長、何時に戻るっておっしゃいましたか。
B: 木村部長ですか。先ほど戻っていらっしゃいましたよ。

The dialogue is from a classic textbook. I found there was two different interpretations of 「～ていらっしゃいました」form different teachers.
One of them said that「～ていらっしゃいました」is the polite form of 「～てくる」(「～てきました」), and in another,「～ていらっしゃいました」 is the polite form of 「～ている」.

Which one is preferred?

This textbook clearly states that polite forms of「いく」,「くる」and「いる」are all「いらっしゃる」(with no 「～て」) , but about 「～ていらっしゃる」, only gives that「～ている」's polite form is「～ていらっしゃる」, does not show whether「～ていらっしゃる」is the polite forms of「～ていく」and「～てくる」.
So, I am temporarily inclined to agree 「戻っていらっしゃいました」is「戻っていた」,but not 「戻ってきた」.

 

[KLAUSED]

先ほど戻って来た
先ほど戻っていた
so it's probably the polite form of 「〜て来た」.

 

[theseus_]

先ほど戻って来た
先ほど戻っていた

Thanks!
May I ask why「先ほど戻っていた」is incorrcect? Is it in contradiction with this context?

 

[Flaminius]

You cannot use the perfect tense (ていた) with an expression that refers to a specific point in time (先ほど).

 

[KLAUSED]

(戻っ)ていた can be used with time indicators. 先ほど isn't one of them.

7時には家に戻っていた。
昨日の時点で日本に戻っていた。
私が電話する少し前には彼はオフィスに戻っていた。

Edit: 先ほど and ていた collocate just fine in some contexts, just not in your example (戻っていた).
先ほどおっしゃっていた件
先ほど観ていた映画

 

[Joschl]

theseus_, please pay attention to the entire verbal aspect of the sentence, including the noun used adverbially (先程), not only to the verbal predicate itself (戻っていらっしゃった). "いらっしゃった in 先程戻っていらっしゃった. can only be synonymous with 来た because the verbal aspect indicated by the adverbial noun "先程" as Flaminius pointed out in his post #4.

You can modify KLAUSED's examples in his post #5 by adding an adverb such as "もう" to accentuate the verbal aspect of the sentences (perfective-resultative). Please pay attention especially to the construction "[a time expression] ni wa", too.

7時には[もう]家に戻っていた。-> 7時には家に[もう]戻っていらっしゃった。
昨日の時点で[もう]日本に戻っていた。-> 昨日の時点で日本に[もう]戻っていらっしゃった。
私が電話する少し前には[もう]彼はオフィスに戻っていた。-> 私が電話する少し前には彼はオフィスに戻っていらっしゃった。

 

[theseus_]

Thanks for your replies, everyone!

But I'm sorry that I have a little doubt about "[a time expression] ni wa".

You can modify KLAUSED's examples in his post #5 by adding an adverb such as "もう" to accentuate the verbal aspect of the sentences (perfective-resultative). Please pay attention especially to the construction "[a time expression] ni wa", too.

Does it mean that "ni wa" indicate "[a time expression]" is not a specific point in time?

 

[Joschl]

My intention was just to draw attention to the difference in the usage of the particles between the two constructions. You can also express a specific point in time such as "五時" with the particle "に" instead of 先程.

[五時]に戻って来た。-> [五時]に戻っていらっしゃった。
[七時]にはもう戻っていた。-> [七時]にはもう戻っていらっしゃった。

 

[Flaminius]

Does it mean that "ni wa" indicate "[a time expression]" is not a specific point in time?

No, it's not a specific POINT in time. E.g., 七時には refers to a range whose upper bound is 7 o'clock and the lower bound is indeterminate but assumed to be some hours before seven.

 

[KLAUSED]

Nor is 先ほど a specific point in time. It could be a few minutes ago or an hour ago.

You cannot use the perfect tense (ていた) with an expression that refers to a specific point in time (先ほど).

This comment seems to be the source of confusion and I don't quite agree with what's being stated:
a) 先ほど is not a specific point in time like 7時に,
b) ていた can be used with 先ほど in certain contexts.

 

[Flaminius]

先ほど is a specific point in time. The two interlocutors may not agree if it means 7 minutes ago or half an hour ago, though. Your examples, KLAUSED, of 先ほど…ていた are both instances of progressive use of ていた, not that of perfect.

 

[Joschl]

Does it mean that "ni wa" indicate "[a time expression]" is not a specific point in time?

I refer to this usage of "[a time expression] ni wa"

に-は〔格助詞「に」に係助詞「は」の付いたもの〕
（１）時・場所・対象，比較の基準など，格助詞「に」で示されるものに，特にとりたてる気持ちを表す係助詞「は」の意味が加えられる。
「九時―行きます」「空―たくさんの星が輝いている」「今度の旅行―行きません」「君―とてもかなわないよ」
大辞林

七時には refers to a range whose upper bound is 7 o'clock

私自身の解釈では「7時の時点では」というだけですが。「7時」が何かの上限であることを示す為に使う助詞としては，私には「まで」が思い浮かびます。ですから，具体的には，「7時までには」となります。

 

[KLAUSED]

先ほど is a specific point in time. The two interlocutors may not agree if it means 7 minutes ago or half an hour ago, though.

What's your definition of a specific point in time, FLAMINIUS? If 7時には is not a specific point in time, which I agree, I don't see how 先ほど is a specific point in time.

Your examples, KLAUSED, of 先ほど…ていた are both instances of progressive use of ていた, not that of perfect.

I guess this explains why 先ほど and 戻っていた do not collocate. The line between past progressive and past perfect may not be so clear in some cases though. Is 止まっていた past progressive (「動作の進行・継続」の「～ていた」) or past perfect (「動作・動きの結果の状態」の「～ていた」) as described here?

先ほど道に車が止まっていた。
is a perfectly valid construction but if it's past perfect as the link suggests it's a counterexample to what you said in #5.

Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure if it's perfectly valid. It sounds pretty natural but probably not as valid as 先ほど道に車が止まっているのを見た.

​

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[Flaminius]

先ほど is a specific point in time a while before the present. Exactly how far back depends on the context, and even the speaker may no give the exact time of the day, but it still is a point, not a range.

 

[Flaminius]

To answer KLAUSED's question I saw after I posted #14:

先ほど道に車が止まっていた。
To me, this 止まっていた is an use of ていた in its progressive sense. Since vehicles can move and stop at any time, 止まる cannot be semelfactive (done once and for all). I also expect cars to often stay in a place to wait for someone to come. I tend to equate 止まる and 待つ in this context.

Edit: And 待つ (matsu, to wait) is inherently progressive in its very sense.

 

[KLAUSED]

先ほどお客さんが来ていましたよ。
来ていました here is not past progressive but this construction is valid. I'm not sure if it's past perfect but it sure feels similar to 戻っていた(いました). It probably falls under ４．視点（話し手の注視点）に関わる「～ていた」 and if so 戻っていた should be able to collocate with 先ほど in certain contexts but I can't think of any examples.