有 + verb

Discussion in '中文+方言 (Chinese)' started by fyl, May 23, 2016.

  1. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    [Moderator's Note: The following discussion is split from this thread]
    The 有+verb structure is a feature of Taiwan Mandarin, possibly originated from 闽南语. In mainland China, such usages are also becoming more popular in recent years.
    台灣國語的特色-詞彙與句法
    语言变异:汉语“有+VP”句简析
    But personally I would still consider this structure as ungrammatical in mainland Mandarin. First, this is still completely unacceptable to many people (如何看待「有+动词」这种用法? - 如何评价 X - 知乎). Second, I have never heard a person without an explicit Taiwan or southern accent saying 有+verb naturally in life, TV programs, or Internet.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2016
  2. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    Interesting. :)I didn't even know there's such a discussion on "有“, while I unconciously have been using this structure now and then all the time. And I hardly even watched Taiwanese TV soap TV series, and I am not influenced by that, but well, I am from the South.

    That is probably not the speech for (some) northern Chinese people, but no one never feels strange about my phrasing when I lived in Shanghai for ten years.

    In MHO, it would be convincing if there were prestigious linguists of standard Mandarin who assert "有“ is ungrammatical in the usage in standard Mandrin or mainland Mandrin.

    From the different sources you provided, I roughly browsed the author also quoted the usage of "有“ in speaking.

    The above samples were cited directly by radio stations of the mainland. As I know, most professional radio and TV anchors majored in communications in their universities to correct their own local accent and speech.


    On 知乎 the plaform for ordinary Chinese netizens to discuss everything, in the other words I mean it is not a professional linguist forum, there's no unanimous assertation which claims that is ungrammatic. The owner of the thread complained more and more translated programmes have adopted the sturture, and he/she personally cannot stand that. Some people agreed, and some feel that is normal.


    The thread owner also said more and more Chinese mainlanders have adopted this structure... What would you think about this comment?


    It seems you are from the north, where there are some unique terms, expressions from the north, i.e. “啥”“甭”“咋“,which are not very usual in the South, however I would not claim those are ungrammatic.

    Loan words and loan expressions have been very usual in all most languages including Mainland Mandrin. “料理” is borrowed from Japanese, but nowadays it is very popular in the mainland of China.


    The author commented the mainlanders have been borrowing or imitating the words from Hong Kong, and Taiwan, while the mainlanders also keep creating words on our own selves.

    In short, I would say (some) Chinese people from the north might feel uncomfortable to use the structure with 有, but I am afraid the claim that the uage is ungrammatical doesn't hold water.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  3. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    This is from the source you provided with too.


    I didn't watch this movie, but a Zhufu user commented that was a classic dialogue. The movie was directed by a well-known director from the mainland, and he is from the north.

    The logic :

    I never see an American in my life =/= there's no American in the world. (Numerous Chinese persons never see any foreigner in their lives.)

    I have met an American = at least can counter-prove the claim that there's no American in the world is wrong.

    Likewise: I have never heard.. = prove nothing (because "I" am not almighty.)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  4. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    過去式
    A: 爸爸不在的這幾天, 你有沒有聽媽媽的話?
    B: 有, 我每天都有聽話。:tick:
    B: 有, 我每天都有在聽話。:cross:

    現在完成進行式(持續到未來)
    A: 你有沒有吃我給你的藥?
    B: 有, 我每天都有在吃 :tick:(藥還沒吃完, 明天還有的吃)。

    我每天都有學中文 ==> 過去式
    我每天都有在學中文 ==> 現在完成進行式
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  5. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    这已经超出了原贴的关注点,所以我直接用中文讨论了。
    “有吃有吃”这句对白之所以“经典”就是因为“有吃”模仿了台湾句式。导演冯小刚的特色风格就是京味对白,电影里北京口音的角色刻意模仿这个句式,所以才搞笑。这句话如果非常正常,有什么“经典”的?
    北方人,包括大部分以内地普通话为标准的南方人,一定会选择“吃过”,而不是“有吃”。

    完全用“有+动词”代替“动词+过”的语法,相信在内地是不获官方支持的。
    但是,在前后有辅助性字词的情况下(如"有+动词+过"),或为了起强调作用,“有+动词”比较容易被接受。
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  6. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    相信官方不会反对吸收外来语和外来表达方式。

    北方人有当地的地方语言特色 如赵本山的小品。 南方人或部分南方人也会说“有吃”,当我们用普通话回答时。大部分南方人,只是你个人的揣测,相信你无法提供相关的统计来证明所谓大部分南方人。抱歉,我就是南方人,但是我一直没有觉得“有吃” 有什么问题,因为这一直是我们的表达方式的习惯,而不是从港台剧学习而来。

    在FLY的帖子所提供的相关网页链接,成都广播电台的主持人也有”都有......" 我再引言用我的帖子。

    相信电台的主持人都是基本上以内地普通话为标准吧。

    东北的方言,及外来语,外来表达方式,官方反对?语言就是不断相互吸收,相互融合,不是只有北方的词汇和表达才是合法,你说呢?

    台语,源于闽南语,闽南语源于中原河洛也是北方。

    有吃?-在那个电影也许对于(部分)北方人会搞笑,但是对于我和肯定有部分的南方人以”有“ 为结构的人,不知笑点在哪。

    老公、老婆在50-70年代貌似很少有人说,一般称“爱人”, “丈夫”,“妻子”, 但是老婆,老公,现在已经成非常普及的词汇。

    一般我们会说:你有去买菜吗?你有去上学吗?你有做某事吗?

    你有没有去买菜?你有没有去上学? (这种表达,我或我们嫌太啰嗦。‘对于我,有”就是“有没有”的缩写词。)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  7. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    我概念中的"有吃"不是"吃過".
    我概念中的"有在學"跟你們翻譯的也不一樣。
    你們說那是台灣國語, 可是你們對該句法的理解詮釋卻跟我不一樣。
     
  8. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    不清楚“你们”指谁。

    只是登清,我没有说那是台湾国语,台湾国语是什么样的结构和特点,我并不十分清楚,因为很少看台湾剧。作为大陆南方人,这是我自然而然的普通话表达方式(之一)。

    这只是和台湾人的国语巧合。

    我不同意“都有” 是文法不对的说法。我只能说,也许不符合部分北方人的表过习惯。
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  9. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    朱德熙先生在《语法讲义》中把能带谓词性宾语的动词“有”称为“准谓宾动词”,说它能带名词宾语,也能带动词宾语,但同时指出“……不能说‘*有看、*有写、*有去、*有反对、*有喜欢、*有同意’。”
    -------quoted in the second link in my previous post.

    I'm sure the usage is not acceptable in 新闻联播.
    For the two programs you mentioned, well, I'm not familiar with them and I don't know how strict/formal/oral/.. they are. Nowadays there are many different styles of TV and radio programs.

    I'm fully aware of the contents in the links provided by myself.
    My point was: The usage is still ungrammatical as of today (there are 3 points here: first, it was absolutely ungrammatical 30 years ago, see 《语法讲义》 above; second, it is becoming more popular, which is what you are saying; third, it is still not completely accepted by mainland people. The 知乎 link serves as an evidence for the 3rd point).

    My claim was about a fact, not judging something is good or bad, normal or strange.
    I'm very comfortable with 有+V and many many other accents/dialects usages. Some people cannot do 卷舌音 correctly, some people cannot distinguish -in and -ing, some speak with a 东北 accent. These are all common in life. There is nothing strange, and no one will complain when they hear these. But you can see, being common and being correct are two different things (suppose we are talking about the standard Mandarin).
     
  10. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    現在完成進行式(have been doing) is also my understanding. Sorry for using very inaccurate terms and translations in my post.
     
  11. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    “有+动词”是否“合语法”,这个问题只是谈目前官方是否支持它(毕竟任何“法”都是人为规定),这并不代表我个人无条件支持“合语法”,或反对语言的发展演变。春节晚会一向都很少照顾南方文化,还时不时用“港台腔”开涮;广电部也动不动下达“推广普通话”的指示,甚至限制方言节目,我说有这些事,也不代表我支持它们。

    不过“有吃”之类的,确实明显不符内地推广的标准普通话风格。我也不敢说官方反对这种用法,但统计一下“普通话水平测试”的官方教材,或者语文教科书,或者央视新闻,应该不难发现“动词+过”才是被当做标准句式来教来讲的,“有+动词”在台湾国语传媒中的出现概率明显高于内地(不分南北方)。否则网上也不至于有争论。这个区别是要知道的。

    “有吃”和“吃过”有什么不一样呢?
     
  12. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    你吃過我炒的菜嗎 ==> 問有無經驗
    你有吃我炒的菜嗎 ==> 問有無參與 或 有無發生

    你吃過飯沒? 吃過了。==> 強調動作結束與否
    你有吃飯嗎? ==> 強調有無發生, 有無存在
    我有吃飯 ==> 重點不是吃過沒, 而是有沒有這碼事

    我給你的藥, 你到底有沒有吃?
    有吃 (強調吃的存在性)
    吃過了 (強調動作的結束)

    A: 我為大家煮的那鍋滷肉, 你也有吃嗎?
    B: 吃過, 吃過, 當然吃過。:cross:
    B: 有吃, 有吃, 當然有吃。:tick:
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  13. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    Well, I admit he was a prestigious linguist, but he has passed away for more than 20 years, and it was more than 30 years ago when the grammar book was published. If there were some Chinese characters which was not adopted in an old dictionary 30 years, does it mean it is wrong to use those unadopted words today. 《语法讲义》(朱德熙,著)(商务印书馆,1982年)I don't think so, and that's why English and Chinese dictionaries and the dictionaries of other languages as well have been keep updating with new editions all the time every a few years.

    I bet If Mr Zhu dexi were still alive, he would have accepted the de facto fact of linguistics about 有, as it is stated by Taiwanese linguists' and has been more and more popular in the mainland. As you are also very comfortable as I and other people do, why would Mr Zhu have turned his blind eye on this?

    I don't think the linguistists from the mainland would be so arrogant to claim only the Mandarin in the mainland is orthodox, and the varieties of that are heretics when the linguistic phenomenon has come to the mainland and has been accepted by other people in usage, if other Chinese persons except for some persons like me learn from Taiwanese culture.

    Please see the changes for 《现代汉语词典》, it just took 13 and 6 years each.

    Please read some comments readers on Douban-many opinions and examples were outdated, though I don't deny it is still a valuable grammar book.
    语法讲义 (豆瓣)
    The style and wording of CCTV news is very formal. The rule of journalism doesn't apply to the colloquial, while the register of the sentence of the OP is colloquial.

    Very few Chinese would speak like the news broadcasters of CCTV . So do Beijingers as well as most people from the north. Does that mean the other people's wording, phrasing, expressions are totally unaceptable? I don't think so either. If so, I would say those people are quite odd if they speak like a book.

    And name-calling definitely would hardly be heard in the news of CCTV, but does that mean those 国骂 are not existing in the standard Mandrin?

    That exactly existed in the link you provided with on your own self.

    What evidence for the 3rd? Does everyone on Zhihu agrees? On the contratry, your link on Zhihu has been self-explaining... The linguistic phenomenon has happened, just some like it, and some don't.

    I think I have made myself very clear with these lengthy and longwinding posts. Excuse me, I am not going to respond. Let me agree at disagree, if not "let us". Ciao!

    PS. My purpose is to speak naturally instead of speaking like a book. In the US, they say, "Me and you go to school". It would be grammatical wrong, but that's real existing language. Native people say all the time... I am pragmatic...
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  14. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    Just want to make one thing clear: I'm comfortable with 有+V as a dialectal usage, especially when speaking with an accent, just like all other accents/dialectal usages. I will definitely not agree that this is correct in 普通话.
    And I bet if Mr Zhu dexi were still alive, he would definitely not accept 有+V as a standard 普通话 usage. So would any serious scholar. The reason is: it is not grammatical as of today, and this is a fact.

    Orthodox?
    I never said 普通话 is the only Mandarin dialect. It is a common sense that there are many many variants of Mandarin. All what I was claiming was about the standard 普通话, not Taiwan mandarin, not 东北话, not 河南话, not 四川话, not the Mandarin dialect spoken in Shanghai. I'm absolutely not knowledgeable about Mandarin varieties in southern China, and I don't want to make any claims about them.
    Arrogant?
    I'm a native speaker of a northern Mandarin Chinese dialect, so were my parents, my grand parents, ... I'm not among those who was native in 吴语 or whatever, and learnt Mandarin only in the last couple of decades (and in fact didn't learn the colloquial part of Mandarin well). Given this, and that the 有+V structure is absolutely 不通顺 to my ears, you say it is "grammatical" only because some not-so-native people have accepted it? Those who are forcing native speakers to accept obviously 不通顺的 sentences are arrogant, IMO.
    Question: Not intend to be offensive but how well do you speak standard 普通话 (not the Mandarin dialect spoken in Shanghai, nor any dialect of 吴语)? Given 在普通话中如何把陈述句朗读成隐性的疑问句? , I wonder this.

    In 北方方言, as you see, the 有+V structure does not exist as of today.
    北京语音 is about pronunciation instead of grammar.
    For 典范的现代白话文著作, are there any well-known 典范的现代白话文著作 after Zhu Dexi died? I'm not aware of many.

    This is what you said: "The above samples were cited directly by radio stations of the mainland. As I know, most professional radio and TV anchors majored in communications in their universities to correct their own local accent and speech."
    This is what I was thinking: OK, let's talk about professional broadcasts.
    This is what you then said: The rule of journalism doesn't apply to the colloquial!
    Well, have fun!

    I think I have made my points clear. I have nothing more to say and will not reply any more to this discussion.
     
  15. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    I can't help replying again, because your comments are funny, both funny hahah and funny peculiar.

    I've said let's agree at disagree, and I also disagree you claim that is ungrammatical.

    Please keep up with the tide no matter responding to my post or trying to preach Mandarin. Joking.:D I've corrected this typo hours ago.

    N-UNCOUNT 不可数名词汉语普通话 Mandarin is the commonly-used language of China.

    普通话=/= 方言,好吗?

    Taiwan Mandarin is considered as a branch of Mandarin with their own characteristics. Few normal people would say that is a dialect.

    东北话,四川话全是方言。


    I am sorry, but your ears =/= 普通话的标准, but 某种未知的北方话的标准。

    Gosh, it was you who mentioned about the style of news of CCTV.

    The style of News of CCTV =TV, radio programmes? :cross: Do you forget what entertainment programmes are?
    The style of news of CCTV= other styles of news programmes in China:cross: (Gosh, you should turn on your TV set tonight.)

    the journalistic style of News of CCTV is very formal, while entertainment programmes can be informal, and mostly informal.

    Actually it was you who mentioned the sources about the TV programmes but not me. You are barking at the wrong tree, buddy.

    What is the basis you think of ? Basis =All :cross:

    Can't Mandarin absorb words from the southern dialects? 基础 is everything?

    Are 咖啡,克隆,移动电话,因特网 derived from northern dialects themselves?:D

    北京语音=/= 普通话
    北京话=a dialect

    Even so, do the people from the south haven't a say on the develope of standard Mandarin? I think it is a joke.

    My command of Mandrin both understanding and speaking are on the average. At least I know how to respond to relevant to the question to the thread. And I hope you are able to do read and understand the forum rule in Chinese... Is your wonder is relevant or irrevant?

    Is it a shame to post a question here? If I post a question, does that mean my Chinese is inferior to yours? If you want to know, my free translation on American country lyrics was once adopted by Xinhua net many years ago.

    We can discuss the language on specific issues. I don't feel ashamed to admit my mistakes as my motto is never too old to learn, but I do look down upon those who try to blow below the belt on this linguistic forum. I will keep asking Chinese questions here if necessary, but some people who never asked a question are not supposed they have supperior knowlege on Chinese.


    I don't care what the dialects your grandpa, your grandma, your father spoke. They are irrelevant, Sorry.

    Well, you speak dialect, and what? Do you mean if peopel speak northern dialects, the outsiders are supposed to understand? I am able to understand the Beijing dialect, but I am not able to understand Shangdong dialect.

    我从没有听说一种叫“官话方言” , “普通话方言”. What do you mean when you mention about "Mandarin dialect"?:confused:

    If you want to take the generation to generation into account, Taiwanese dialect is orginated from Henan dialect. A virtual north dialect!!!

    If you read aloud arachic Chinse poems with Taianese dialect aka Hokkien, they rhythe very well, but not in modern standard Mandarin.

    So I needn't tell you my ancestors spoke some northern dialect too according to our family tree, need I?

    It is fine you can say my Mandarin is not good but I hope you don't try to call those from the south and Taiwanese with the insulting term of no-so-native speaker you coined if we just use the structure - 有。

    My two cents of no-so-native speaker's.:rolleyes::D
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  16. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    我认为这种句式既然在台湾已经成为一种语言特色,而且已经蔓延到大陆并为相当一部分群体所有意识地说,大陆官方去强加或支持或反对,都是不明智的。管也管得太宽了,也不利于国际华人圈的语言交流。汉语又不是只有在大陆才可以讲,台湾,新加坡等也有自己的地方特色。台湾和新加坡可以吸收大陆词汇或简化字,而大陆汉语就不能吸收大陆南方及海外的词汇和句式了吗?

    英语虽说源于英国,有美式、澳式(新西兰式)、英式等主流英语各分天下。爱好美式发音的外国人不知有多少。德语除德式、有奥地利德语、瑞士德语等的分支。德国人也从不认为只有他们的德语才是正宗,别的分支就是异教加以歧视。本论坛的德语论坛有相关的帖子。

    大陆官方明确地反对在汉语中(书面及普通话)夹杂外来单词,如非得把NBA改为什么美国职业篮赛之类的,谁也不懂的词汇。有本事大陆官方自己创造一些词来代替所有音译词-咖啡 改叫 “一种棕色的豆豆磨成的粉”, 克隆羊改叫“一种用细胞单性生殖而培育成的羊”。 

    到了咖啡馆就说,“给我来一杯一种棕色豆豆粉汤”。

    这些全是夜郎自大,以自我为中心的表现。为啥已经成为事实的语言模式-有+动词,在台湾合法,在大陆就成怪胎?北方人认为是怪胎,我们包括我和相当一部分南方人本来就是用这种句式,也不行?太奇怪了!

    源于大陆或北方才是正宗汉语,而海外或南方就是不正宗?事实,台湾还保留繁体字,而大陆早把繁体字抛弃了。台湾捍卫汉字的“根”比大陆强。(我并不认为繁体就是好。)

    诚然普通话是以北方方言或北京方言为基础,但是基础并不代表就排除一切外来语,排除一切南方用语。普通话并没有被定义为一种只能或全部采用北京方言或北方方言的全国性通用语。

    海纳百川,有容乃大!
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  17. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    Same here. Please see my posting time and editing time which were prior to yours. I mean I didn't follow your suit after reading your posts about this.
     
  18. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    As a requirement of "political correctness", here is a clarification:
    If one's parents do not speak a certain language, it is likely that s/he is not native in that language, because s/he may not grow up in the language environment. If one's grand parents do not speak a certain language, s/he's parents may not be native in it, s/he may be native in the language because his/her parents speak the language as a second language, but still it's very likely that s/he speaks a (new) dialect/accent of the language affected by non-native speakers (his/her parents).
    It is well-known that the standard Mandarin is not used in daily life in most areas of China, until very recently among young people. Because of 推广普通话, in non-Mandarin areas, new Mandarin dialects are emerging and forming, traditional dialects/languages are dying. In Shanghai, many people are native in dialects of 吴语. Being not-so-native in the standard Mandarin (which is one dialect of Mandarin) is absolutely common and this is not a insulting term.
    People are native in their own languages or dialects (e.g. 吴语, newly emerged Mandarin dialects because of 推广普通话, Taiwan Mandarin, etc.), not necessarily anything close to the standard 普通话. In Shanghai, many people now speak Mandarin but that may or may not be similar to the standard Mandarin (In fact, some people have obvious non-standard accents such as 不分平翘 不分前后鼻音). It is not shameful or bad at all to be not-so-native in a different language/dialect. But it is shameful to make false claims aggressively about something in a dialect or language that you do not know well.

    I would also encourage people to learn basic things in linguistics before making claims in areas that you obviously have no previous knowledge in (Dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, 此外,若从创制源头来讲,普通话(华语)和国语(台湾国语)均属北京官话方言, 方言吹辟谣贴:1 2 3 and many if you search). And of course, the most important thing is stick to objective scientific facts, and do not make personal subjective claims of what is good and what should be done, and do not falsification others' opinions, and learn logic, and be rational.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  19. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    北京晨报:校内天价小卖部有违德育精神 ==> Isn't 违 a verb and 德育精神 an object?
    人民日报称红包大战之间的“围墙”高筑,有损行业生态 ==> Isn't 损 a verb and 行业生态 an object?
    《春秋傳》日, 月有食之 (《說文解字注》日不當見食也, 而有食之者, 孰食之? 月食之也)
    《荀子》凡百事之成也, 必有敬之, 其败也, 必有慢之.
    Gerunds and infinitives can take the place of a noun in a sentence, so 有 + verb form, of course, is not automatically ungrammatical.
    A: 街上裸奔有礙觀瞻嗎?
    B: 有礙, 有礙, 當然有礙。
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  20. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    有违 and 有损 are correct in 普通话. However, their meanings are different from 小卖部"有违反"德育精神 ..."有损害"行业生态.

    现代汉语词典 has 有碍 and 有损 as words (I didn't find 有违):
    有碍 is explained as 有所妨碍 with examples 有碍观瞻 and 街头小广告有碍市容.
    有损 is explained as 给某事物造成损害 with examples 有损声誉 and 吸烟有损健康.
    I believe "有妨碍" is not the same as 有所妨碍, and "有损害" cannot be used as 吸烟有损害健康 since 吸烟 has not happened.
    Again, my claim is only about 普通话 in mainland China, not other Mandarin dialects nor ancient Chinese..
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
  21. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    有所妨碍 = 有妨碍之處
    有碍观瞻 = 有妨碍观瞻的地方
    有...的地方 (e.g., 有碍观瞻), 有...的時候 (e.g., 月有食之), or 有...的事發生 (e.g., 必有敬之) is exactly the gist of "有+VP". As I've stated, 重點不是有沒有完成, 而是有沒有這碼事 (有沒有這樣的地方, 有沒有這樣的時候, 有沒有這樣的事).
     
  22. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    I understand the 有 in 有+VP still has the gist meaning of the normal 有.
    But 有+noun phrase is still quite different from 有+predicate.
    小卖部的行为有违德育精神=小卖部的行为 has something that 违反德育精神, fine.
    小卖部的行为有违反德育精神=小卖部的行为 has "违反德育精神"??? A "行为" can have its time, place, effects, details, subject, object, etc. A "小卖部" can have its address, owner, debts, customer, buildings, etc. How can a thing have "违反"? I understand the sentence is supposed to mean 有“违反德育精神”这码事. But from the view of grammar, this is definitely something unusual to me. One can have a "thing". How can one have an action? This is why the phrase sounds strange to me.
     
  23. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    那篇在维其百科什么叫方言和语言的文章我早就看过了。劳驾不需要再科普了。

    你并没真正理解什么叫普通话与方言。

    普通话=只是一种人造语言。在中国,所有各个省份,并没人天生是讲纯正的普通话。(少数如播音员的子女后代除外,我们讨论是至少90%以上的人口,而非特殊职业或背景与语言专业无关的普通人。)

    注意: 哪怕北京人讲的也不纯正的普通话。一个讲普通话人,带有京腔,就算不错在讲严格意义上的普通话。普通话是基于北方方言为基础,但是不代表北京方言及北方言就是普通话。以下公式表达:
    普通话=/=北方方言
    普通话=/=北京话


    上海人讲的是上海话;
    河北人讲的是河北话;
    山东人讲的是山东话;
    北京人讲的是北京话;
    四川人讲的是四川话;
    湖南人讲的是湖南话;
    福建人讲的是各种方言包括闽南语,福州话,三明话,龙岩话,客家话等等,不再一一列举。

    你前面提到的《新闻联播》的语音是正规、严格意义上的普通话,只有少数播音系、主持专业、演员、教师等他人所掌握,但是全国十多亿人口及广大海外华人天生没有天生会讲,没有所谓的native-speaker of 普通话,有的只是一种接近普通话的所谓普通话,我称之为广泛意义上的普通话,这是数十亿中国人通用的语言。(顺带提及:你所说的《新闻联播》表达方式,非语音,那是一种正式性的新闻语言。两者有区别,请别再混淆。

    《新闻联播》的措辞都是严格审核的,代表大陆官方的严肃政治态度;而很多地方台的新闻报导如之间我看过的湖南卫视的新闻,他们采用一种亲切的风格。地方台有可能采用“都有”, 电视剧也会采用口语化,央视除了新闻节目,如或特别是《新闻联播》外,其语音可生活化。比如:之前的央视主持人毕福剑在主持的语音就不是纯正的严格意义上的普通话。

    曾几何时《新闻联播》的语音、语调是一口京腔、东北腔、河南腔的北方方言?劳驾您再去看看吧。

    以母语是汉语的华人圈,特别在中国境内,你自称的所谓native-speaker or no-so-native speaker of 普通话那是笑话,每个地方都带有口音。你们北方人天生也不是讲纯正、严格意义的普通话的,你往上推几十代,再倒数几辈,你曾曾祖父母,你的祖父母,你的父母再至你这一代,且不说你,就拿你身处的地区的人,人人都讲一口标准的字正腔圆的普通话吗?不,那是多数是后天所纠正。请去查查普通话的等级考试吧。能达到完美的,你所处地区有几人?全国占有多数比例?再用公式表求给你看:

    北方人的母语= native-speaker of 纯正的严格意义上普通话:cross:
    北方人的母语= native-speaker of 相对更接近普通话的各种方言:tick:


    我承认多北方人讲的普通话的语音相对或远比多数南方人更为接近严格意义通话话,但是什么叫“百步笑五十步”? 意思是如果某些人自己不完美,有什么资格来取笑或挑剔别人呢?所有北方人的语音及表达方式都是你所说的什么经典白话的典范了吗?

    你在英语中处处用Mandarin dialect。劳驾去查查什么叫官话方言吧。官话或普通话就是官话或普通话;有北方方言,而没有所谓的Mandarin dialect.

    北方人,如:东北人、北京人的日常语言不夹杂地区的俚语了吗?带地区性的俚语就不算纯正的普通话。


    对啊,不是some,很多。全国基本上都带有各种各样的问题。春晚调侃福建人,“福”和“胡”分不清, 湖北人则“N" "L'分不清,还有昨天和一个四川人说话,他一个词我也听不懂,再问他重新发音。我才听懂。记得有一次我给一个山东人打电话,他家在农村,接电话的是一个老太太,我压根听不懂。问她儿子的手机号码,她连说几次我也听不懂。这些北方人、南方人的母语全不是普通话好吗?

    我们这里是相互探讨语言问题,什么叫可耻?

    即便我或其他在本帖或其他帖中的意见是错误的,也并不可耻。论坛的功能就是相互纠正,相互学习。难道你教育一行一动要正确,如果不正确就是可耻的吗?再次,谁是正确,谁是错误,有结果吗?

    但是在论坛上的目的就是攻击别人,而非论点,那才是违反论坛精神和规则的,并可耻的事。

    你的目的是什么?是想说明,如果我在论坛上问问题,就代表我的汉语水平差吗?你不问,就代表你的水平高?文盲也从不问问题。白居易也会把自己的诗念给目不识丁的老太,看是否通顺。哪怕某个语言上的问题,我是错,你是对。就能代表整体水平了吗?本论坛的功能就仅沦为教外国人学汉语了吗?再次,你也没有在我的帖子给我答案啊。你懂不懂,还是另外一个问题。你不懂的问题能查字典,能百度找答案,而我只不过换另一种方式找答案,就说明你的水平高了吗?本版的中文版规及总论坛的版规我都一一去看了,也请你去看看。 另外,我开放性地认为,人人皆可为我师,哪怕总体水平语言比我差的,也有可能值得我学习的。

    你可以攻击的我的观点错误,但是不要进行人身攻击。认为如果发表错误意见就是可耻,这是错误的!!暗示别人的汉语水平比你差,也是一种人身攻击。懂了吗?自夸不是真正的高明,而是别人心悦诚服。一个姑娘成天夸自己漂亮,就是丑陋。别人夸,才有意义;一个女神成天指则别人丑陋,我相信这样的人不是真美女。

    谁的言论是offensive, aggressive?

    我在帖中并没有说你的话是错的。我只是说”都有”这个结构,在我这个南方人看来,是很通顺。我没有把自己的语言习惯强加于你或北方人,而是告诉你-你所认为的大陆普通话语法错,但是我们地区一直这么讲,顺得很。但是你一直强势告诉我们,“都有”按照北方的标准是错的,只有北方人才有对语法有话语权,就因为普通话是基于北方方言。


    你一直在误以为北方方言就是严格意义普通话。不,你们北方人讲的从语音到表达方式或词汇基本上就是北方方言。如果你以为“基础”在普通话里及其发展就是完全排除南方和外来语,那么请你们以后不要再用音译词了-咖啡、克隆这些词全不要用了。去political correctness吧!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  24. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    但是你的第一次回答就claim了。

    你不觉得你的话前后矛盾吗?

    一方面你说你不懂南方普通话,另一方面你又说在大陆普通话语法错误?

    我说的只是告诉你:我是大陆南方人,我就是一直这么说的,而非是台湾国语唯一的现象,好么?但是你一直在强势推销北方方言的标准。说什么你的ears听不通顺。但是你个人的耳朵关我们南方人什么事?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  25. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    想當初英語的完成式, 不也是從"有"("have" as in "have done")的概念慢慢演化成如今的模樣嗎? 可見"有做某事"的概念並非火星人才想得出來。
     
  26. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    @fly

    Skatinginbc貌似是台湾国语;
    我的是南方的普通话

    我们在“有做某事”是不谋而合的。见前面帖子#7,#8.

    这种语言格式一直天生存在我们的表达方式中,并非受港台影响。
     
  27. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    Again, I said many times that 有做某事 is ungrammatical in 普通话 in mainland China and I have never claimed this is good or bad, nor anything in other Mandarin dialects. So I don't know what you want to argue.
     
  28. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    《现代汉语词典》除了定义外,也有收录功能,也有删除功能。没有收录,并不代表错。就是存在了,才可能收录。中国人或华人的语言并不是先去查查《现代汉词典》有收录才可以采用,没有收录就不能采用。否则,这叫本末倒置。

    大陆《财经》网站,某篇报导的标题

    大陆《新民网》转录《中国甘肃网》的新闻标题

    大陆《百度百科》的词条定义。

    大陆的《光明日报》新闻标题。

    《光明日报》是中共中央机关报之一,是由中宣部直接领导的大型、全国性的官方新闻媒体之一,中央宣传部代管的中央党报。

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  29. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    What I have been trying to say:
    1. The thread title is "有 + Verb", so I feel I need to point out that not all "有 + VP" constructions are considered ungrammatical in Standard Mandarin (Mainland or Taiwan). I think 有失身份, 有欠風範, 有助學業, and so forth are quite standard.
    2. The argument that the notion of "有 + action verb" is strange and therefore it is ungrammatical seems weak to me. I think the notion can be easily acquired. There must be other reasons. For example, 他們有在談情說愛 sounds rather awkward to me, and the reason is definitely not unfamiliarity with the concept of "有+verb".
     
  30. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    @twinklestar 我没功夫在这跟你吵,你先搞明白以下几个概念:
    1. 官话 (Mandarin) 包含北京官话、东北官话、冀鲁官话、中原官话、西南官话等等方言。普通话、台湾国语、上海口音的“普通话”,都可算作是北京官话的方言或次方言。
    2. 普通话 (英文也叫 Mandarin,但在需要特别区别时我会用 standard Mandarin 或 standard Mandarin in mainland 以免误解) 是一种标准化的官话方言。标准化,明白?就是有非常清楚的正确错误之分。上学的时候老师会教给你每个字的标准发音,勉强读mian3qiang3,你要读mian3qiang2就是错的(但很多官话方言里就是读mian3qiang2);切脉读qie4mai4,你要读qie1脉mai4就是错的(但很多官话方言里就是读qie3mai4);十是十四是四,平翘错了要扣分,这就叫标准化。
    一种实际的语言或方言,怎么说哪个读音、用法是对的?没法说。唯一的标准就是native speaker的用法。
    而一种标准化的语言,怎么说哪个读音、用法是对的?唯一的标准就是字典。没有任何人以标准化语言为母语,所有人都是学这种语言的学生。
    3. 上海口音的“普通话”,是在推广普通话(一种"标准化语言")运动之下形成的一种"实际的语言",也可以算作是北京官话的一种次方言。我说“有+VP”不合语法,指的是普通话(标准化语言),而不是南方人说的“普通话”(实际语言)。事实上,“南方人说的普通话”这个短语并不存在,它也并不是普通话。
    4. 北方方言固然普通话有很多不同,然而母语是北方方言的人学普通话是不费力的。我普通话确实比你好,而且我所处的语言环境之中大多数人的普通话都很好。你所处的语言环境中很多人的普通话不好,连平翘、前后鼻音都不分。至于你信或不信,我没办法隔着网络证明。我非常确定“有+VP”在“普通话”中是错的(我并没有说它在北方方言中如何如何),这来源于我对普通话的了解,而不是我对北方各个方言的了解。普通话本身就是一种北方方言,上海话和普通话有天壤之别,这不是五十步笑百步,而是我很明确地知道一些你可能不了解的东西。

    然后,如果想要讨论问题,请务必讲道理、讲逻辑。这里我们的讨论很不愉快,我有错我道歉。但是,你一直在不断歪曲我的话,不断用搜索到的资料(其实你并不懂)编造各种似是而非的论据,这样是没法讨论的。
    我明明说的是你的普通话not-so-native,怎么就变成了“汉语”不好?上海人讲上海话,上海话不是汉语吗?上海外来人和年轻人说上海味的“普通话”,台湾人说的“国语”,不也是汉语吗?我强调所讨论的话题至少四五遍了吧,视而不见?
    我明明讨论的是大陆的普通话,怎么就变成了哪种方言正宗哪种不正宗?我强调不做good/bad判断已经很多遍了吧。
    “普通话是以北方方言为基础,以北京语音为基础音,以典范的现代白话文著作为语法规范的现代汉语标准”,明明是三句话,而且第三句还特地强调了“语法”,怎么到了你那里就成了一句?
    我说“有+VP”still ungrammatical,怎么就变成排斥外来语了?明明是接受外来语好不好?我说的只是一个事实:这个结构尚未被完全接受。要是排斥外来语还能“尚未”吗?你写那么一大篇与讨论无关的东西简直让人无语。
    你说电视台上主持人说的都是“普通话”,还什么纠正语音,这算什么论据啊,显然不是,真要是纠正就不会有“有+VP”,可见是没怎么纠正。

    还有,你又找了一大堆“有违”。我跟skatinginbc已经把这个问题讨论清楚了,你难道就不读我的帖子吗?“有违”跟“有违背”你分不清楚?“有违”根本就不是这里要讨论的那个结构,“有违背”才是。
    发展转基因作物有违天道 vs 发展转基因作物有违背天道
    有违公共道德 vs 有违背公共道德
    意思根本不同,这么明显的区别你读不出来?那我可真要怀疑你的汉语水平了。
    我已经说过了:在普通话里“有违”是正确的,“有违背”是错误的。你没看到?你拿一堆“有违”出来说事,可我明明说了我觉得那是正确用法。你是不是觉得无休止、无意义、死缠烂打的争吵很有意思啊?

    我还要再重复一遍,我听过的所有能自然而然说出“有+VP”的必是南方口音。用字正腔圆的普通话说“有+VP”是很不协调的,犹如彪形大汉发嗲。还是那句话,至于你信或不信,我都没法证明,你要想吵我也没兴趣。除非你再歪曲我的话,否则我没有新观点要写,请读我前面的帖子。
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  31. darren8221 Member

    Mandarin - Taiwanese
    在台灣,說「有+V」是沒有問題的。在台灣說台語/閩南語/河洛話的時候更是常見,「有吃過、有睡飽、有聽到、有喜歡、有了解、有同意、有到」都是可能的。記得到台灣來時會聽到這些,並且知道怎麼理解就好了。

    有些「有+V」是固定用法(還不少,如 #29,),那些變成了書面語的詞需要另外記下來。
     
  32. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    1. 首先,我绝对没有和你吵架的意思。你从何而来吵架之说。
    (1)你把不同的意见当成吵架,并试图加以人身攻击,引用一些丝毫无关的问题。-如问我-我在本讨坛的问题,来质问我的汉语水平。表面dont' intend to to offensive. 但是你真是怀善意来问我的水平吗?
    (2)另你说,如果有人要论坛发表错误的意见就需要引为耻。你貌似把论坛当成炫耀自己北方方言的地方,而不是相互学习,相互探讨的一个平台。有必要吗?哪怕我讨论输了,我也学到新知识,你助人为乐。哪怕你赢了,你也不少一斤肉。

    我只对你的问题提出反驳。我有什么地方和你吵架?

    在论坛上,如果所有人能相互尊重对方,你我心平气和文明用词,你怎么会不愉快?从一开头,我就说明自己的立场,我使用的普通话就是这么讲。你自己把北方的方言说成是唯一的标准。

    (3)你有文明用词过吗?有用一种尊重、礼貌的态度对待坛友吗? “编造”, “其实你并不懂”。 这些词,只是你一厢情愿的说活。所谓的我不懂,你就提出自己的论点,是非大家自会评定。其实,如果你换个立场,你指责我话毫无根据。
    你自己的逻辑从一开头就很模糊。早在前几楼,我就跟你说过了。我不想用不礼貌的语言来说,你懂还是不懂。

    The logic :

    I never see an American in my life =/= there's no American in the world. (Numerous Chinese persons never see any foreigner in their lives.)

    I have met an American = at least can counter-prove the claim that there's no American in the world is wrong.

    Likewise: I have never heard.. = prove nothing (because "I" am not almighty.)

    你自己老是在你,你从没听过,从没看过。就来代表所有人也和你一样吗?你说你在大陆除了南方外,你没有见过:有+VP在 媒体上及网联网的运用,但是我举例一一反驳你的观点了。

    2. 你不断地用英语 Mandarin dialect来创造新的概念。

    以下是英国剑桥大学出版的英文词典的定义:
    one of the two main types of the Chinese language and theofficial language in China and Taiwan.

    换句话说:就是普通话及台湾国语

    你自己还在不断地发明standard Mandarin 或 standard Mandarin in mainland.

    3. 你引用一些要么二、三十年前的语言学家部分过时的观点,要么就采用某某字典没有收录,来证明某部字典不存在的,某个词汇运用就不存在。这是对的吗?

    4. 你和Skatinginbc理清了吗?

    5. 我已经清清清楚楚地把你的帖子全看清了,但是你一直纠缠在几个错误的概念。

    6. 你可以忽视我的帖子或选择我的观点进行反驳,至于你要不要发表新观点。是你的事,好吗?你可以不要看。

    我建议你,不要再不断地指责对方,而是针对,引用对方的观点,进行反驳。就空洞的话给别人贴标-你不懂,你编造是是而非的论点,质疑别人的汉语水平,说你的祖上也是北方语言的母语者,这些能给你自己的辩论增加什么说明力吗? nothing!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  33. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    什么叫普通话?就是全国性的普遍接受和通用使用的语言,另外一般是政治上强加于的。


    什么是方言?就是带有地区性、局限性的语言。闽南语、上海话、广东话,就是一种除了在这些地方外,基本很少群体会讲的语言。

    你说普通话是方言,没有哪一个地方的,包括北方,山东、河南、河北、北京等是采用标准的普通话来当母语的。北京话、东北话就带有当地浓厚的语言色彩。北方的方言各不相

    就象标准的德语也是一种人造语言一样,就是把各个北方地区的使用语言加以规范,规定统一发音、基本的语法、语汇。

    [...]

    事实上普通话就是这样。没有哪个地区人采取的语音和普通话一样样。

    5. 如果全国各地的人不讲普通话,你们北方人根本基本上听不懂南方的各种方言,不要再讲上海人对外地人讲的话不是普通话了。如果上海人不讲普通话,我也听不懂。

     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2016
  34. twinklestar

    twinklestar Senior Member

    China
    Chinese
    有+VP结构,并不是现在才有。 对,这是我从网络的语言论文选录。总比《知乎》上的更为可靠吧?
    [doc] “有+VP”结构浅析
    予路有闻,末之能行,唯恐有闻《论语》

    圣人有忧之,使契为司徒,教以人伦《滕文公上》

    你真的要讨论问题,就不要带情绪去讨论。问问自己-你想要的是什么?

    - 炫耀自己知识?鄙视别人不如你?
    - 学习、分享知识为乐?

    最后再说一次,我尊重你使用的语言习惯,但是你也不要把自己认为北方的标准强加给我和其他的南方人-即别给我们贴”我们讲的不是普通话“,”这个那个不合文法“的标签,因为你并没有资格。我不要求你或别人使用“有+VP"结构,但是有很多或越来越多的北方人愿意模仿和交融南方语言和文化。我们让别人自动做出选择。哪怕某些语法书其语法有这样那样的观点,但是观点过时,也要更换。

    该说的,我说了。已经花了近二天的时间,在这里做无用功。我对输赢不感兴趣,但是也没有学到什么有价值的知识。

    希望你能真正学会尊重别人的观点-即便与你不同,即使是错误,而不是去嘲笑与强加自己的观点给别人。帮助别人,自己也学到知识才是正道。

    再见!我取消关注本帖的通知了。
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  35. KK_Tse Member

    Chinese - Hong Kong
    The construction "有+verb" is quite common, isn't it? Especially in questions like:

    1. 你今天有看到我的小猫吗?(or 你今天有没有看到我的小猫?)
    - 有啊,我有看到它,在厨房里。
    2. 昨天下课以后,你们有去打篮球吗?
    - 有,我们都有去,还打了三个多钟头。
    3. 上星期六,你有去过绿门酒吧吗?(Very typical during a police interrogation)
    - 没有。绿门酒吧,我听都没听过。

    However, we don't quite use it when telling a new piece of info like:

    ?? 4. 我昨天在商场有看到李老师。(Rather: 我昨天在商场看到李老师。)
    ?? 5. 昨天下课以后,我们有去打篮球。(Rather: 昨天下课以后,我们去打篮球。)
    ?? 6. 绿门酒吧我有去过好几次了。(Rather: 绿门酒吧我去过好几次了。)

    It seems that "有+verb" is used only when "没有" is envisaged. Otherwise we just use the verb without "有"。

    It is interesting to note the use of "有" with the aspect marker "了":

    7. 他们吃饭了吗?
    - 有,吃了。
    8. 你买车了吗?
    - 没有,我还没有买车。

    However, we simply cannot say *他们有吃饭了吗/他们有吃饭了/他们没有吃饭了 or *你有买车了吗/我有买车了/我没有买车了。
     
  36. SuperXW

    SuperXW Senior Member

    More common in Taiwanese Mandarin comparing to mainland Mandarin.
    For #7, I don't think people would normally answer with 有.
     
  37. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    @twinklestar 我从你的回复中把和问题相关的挑出来了,你自己看吧:

    2. Mandarin Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,如果被墙了请看官话(现代汉语方言)_百度百科我真希望这是我发明的概念
    另外,引用two main types of the Chinese language,有两个问题:
    (a) 知识错误。不论字典多么权威,这都是一条不靠谱的学术论述。two main types显然是指mandarin和cantonese,然而以吴语为母语的人数在中国境内中仅次于以官话(北方话)为母语的人数”(https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/吴语)。另外请见中国汉语言分布图,跟粤语面积差不多的有好几个。这种论述完全是以外国人的主观感受作判断,问题多多。
    (b) 逻辑错误。什么叫type?一个type之下是否包含若干中方言?比如北方话是一“种”汉语,但北方话之下却包含了东北话、山东话以及其他大相径庭的方言,比如南方话也是一“种”汉语,但其中包含了好多种有天壤之别的语言。type不是一个有严格定义的概念。你引用的这句话非但不能否定我的说法(事实上那是公认的说法),而且还和我说的完全吻合。

    3. 有违 和 这里讨论的那个“有+VP”的用法 不是同一个东西,这一点已经说清楚了。我们讨论别的事情与你无关。如果你同意“有违=/=有违背”,那你拿“有违”当论据就是逻辑错误,因为“有违”不是我们要讨论的结构;如果你认为二者相同,那你就应该明确提出你的观点。

    5. 听得懂就等于普通话???那你为什么还说北京话不是普通话,台湾国语不是普通话?你不都听得懂吗?这种逻辑错误几乎处处都有。

    7. 你找的那篇论文第一页就白纸黑字地写着“有+VP”是新兴用法,然后你从中捡了几句文,你什么意思?转移话题?这里讨论的是普通话中的“有+VP”,不是其他方言中的用法,不是古代的用法,更不是词源,说的还不够明白?你这又是典型的逻辑错误

    不是我不想讨论问题,而是你写的东西根本就没法讨论。我说你写的东西充满了知识错误和逻辑错误,你又不高兴,但是我现在这一个回复就已经指出这么多逻辑错误了,你让我怎么讨论?如果连逻辑都没有,我实在不知道还有什么办法讨论。我劝你平心静气客观冷静地看待问题。
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  38. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    我简直无语了。这就是你脑中的逻辑?!
    我的第一个帖子,论点是“我个人认为A”,然后列了两个论据B和C。
    首先,这和“(B且C)推出A”是截然不同的概念,你上学难道就没学过议论文?“论据”和“推出”能是一回事吗?在中国生活这么多年网络和电视也看了不少,我如果说我个人认为“一个没听过的东西没被普遍接受”,你敢说我的经历不能做论据?
    然后,“(B且C)推出A”跟“C推出A”是完完全全不同的,仅从形式上讲这是荒唐的。
    更关键的是,你居然把我的观点歪曲成了“C推出D”,我的论点A哪里去了?A=“我个人认为xxx不符合普通话的语法”,D=“没有人用xxx”。这也太令人发指了吧!!我什么时候说过“没人用xxx”?我记得我强调“xxx变得越来越普遍”这个事实已经很多很多遍了。你再去读读我第一个帖子第二句话,睁大眼睛看看写的是啥。你为什么要编造我的观点?而且“有人用”和“普遍接受”一样吗?“普遍接受”和“符合语法”一样吗?“符合语法”和“符合普通话”的语法一样吗?“符合普通话”的语法跟“我个人认为如何如何”是一回事吗?

    最后,你举的那两个电台的例子又有什么意义?拾人牙慧无聊重复我就不评论了,不要以为别人都跟你一样什么都不看什么都不懂。我就问你怎么知道主持人没有南方口音?就凭你主观臆断说他们都矫正过口音?
    你就不知道央视主持人阿丘有口音?你没听过地方台主持人各种南方口音?你自己为啥还承认毕福剑有口音?我表述得很清楚,我从未听过不带明显南方口音的人很自然地说出过“有+V”这个结构。你要反驳首先要证明他们没有南方口音(你没做到),然后还得证明我听过(你无法做到)。事实上,只要你证明他们没有南方口音,那么你的回复就是有价值的信息了,然而你没有,你只是机械性重复我已经知道的东西,毫无价值。

    从一开始你每一个论述都有逻辑错误,你最开始讨论“the logic”的时候,我就以为你是气急败坏撒泼,没想到撒泼居然还撒出理来了。好久没见过这样的奇葩了。

    我是想讨论问题。然而,面对于一个不断歪曲捏造我的观点、每一个论述都有严重逻辑错误、连基本事实都可以公然否认的人,我该怎样讨论?

    我想要什么?我倒是想知道你想要什么?我澄清过很多次了,我不是在做一个good/bad的判断,你为什么跟受了人身攻击似的不择手段的辩论,连黑白立见的事情都否认?普通话不好怎么了?国家领导人没一个普通话好的,怎么了?南方人为什么普通话要好?我向来支持保护方言,支持每个人在生活中说母语,反对过分推普。不是我不包容,而是让你以普通话为母语的人不包容,搞出一些不伦不类的新兴普语次方言,不但坏了普通话的规矩,还坏了方言的规矩,普通话没学好,方言忘光了。人皆以自己的母语为骄傲,人如果正常学说本地方言,还会在乎别人说你普通话好不好吗?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  39. darren8221 Member

    Mandarin - Taiwanese
    As a Taiwanese, all examples make sense to me, even #7. People say it all the time.
     
  40. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    We are discussing grammar (語法), aren't we? It seems pointless to compare whose pronunciation (語音) is more "native" or "not-so-native" here.

    《中华人民共和国国家通用语言文学字法》普通话以北京语音为标准音,以北方话为基础方言,以典范的现代白话文著作为语法规范 ==> 這個定義從語音(北京为标准)、詞彙(北方話为基础)、語法(以魯迅、茅盾、冰心、葉聖陶等的著名現代白話作品為規範)三方面明確規定了普通話的標準.
    魯迅:浙江紹興人
    茅盾:浙江嘉興桐鄉人
    冰心:福建省長樂人
    葉聖陶:江蘇蘇州人
    胡適: 安徽績溪人
    朱自清: 江蘇揚州人
    徐志摩: 浙江海寧人
    中華民國國民政府定都南京, 標準國語語法深受江浙名士影響

    Dictionaries can prescribe pronunciations (語音) and definitions for each lexicon (詞彙), so there may be a black-and-white standard, but they offer little information regarding grammar (語法). The sense of a "standard grammar" is acquired through years of studying famous modern Chinese literature (白話文學), which is in turn based loosely upon a mixture of northern, southern, and classical grammar.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  41. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    Definitely. I'm sure the structure is ungrammatical in 典范的现代白话文著作. We have links to several articles about the 有+VP structure and one grammar book in this thread. All have confirmed 有+VP is a 新兴的 structure. The only thing we are arguing here is whether this new structure has been so widely accepted that it has become a part of 普通话. And my answer is clearly an "NO".

    Here is another document: 《普通话测试用普通话与方言词语对照表

    I believe the argument is quite black and white to anyone who's good at 普通话. It seems not black and white only because this is an English forum and few Chinese speakers use it.

    I believe not only 语法, but also 语音, 词汇 of the standard Mandarin have a great amount of elements from 江浙名士.
    In fact, many 北方方言 also have many 江南 elements, e.g. 天津话.
    But again, that's irrelevant. And all these people have died long before 有+VP started to spread in mainland China.
    And one irrelevant point: I don't think the people you list here fully represent 典范的现代白话文. It is well known the languages in 鲁迅's articles are not so "smooth", some people say the reason is that 现代白话文 was still in the procedure of forming during 鲁迅's period.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  42. brofeelgood

    brofeelgood Senior Member

    Zürich, Switzerland
    English, 中文
    Here's a related article from Chinese Grammar Wiki. Interestingly, the article is titled "Taiwanese You (有)", but I think this form of usage is also common in certain parts of Mainland China.
     
  43. KK_Tse Member

    Chinese - Hong Kong
    Thank you for the info. The Wiki article is interesting. I didn't know that 有 is used that way in Taiwanese Mandarin, that is to say, people use the construction "有+verb" even when "没有" is not envisaged. I would love to learn more about this usage next time when I see my friends from Taiwan.
     
  44. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Indeed, Twinklestar has been telling us in so many words that 有+V is indigenous in certain parts of Mainland China (这种语言格式一直天生存在我们的表达方式中,并非受港台影响) and certainly a heirloom of ancient orthodox Chinese (《滕文公上》圣人有忧之) although I think its recent popularity can indeed be attributed to 開放政策 (particularly 兩岸交流), or more importantly, the introduction of commercial products (e.g., TV programs, movies) and new technologies (e.g., internet) that facilitate wide-scale contact within global Sinophonia.

    It appears to me that some people in Mainland China also say "有 + V + 了", for example, 「为什么每天都要练琴,昨天已经练过。」我反问他:「为什么昨天吃饭,今天还要吃呢?」(作者: 安徽淮南波尔卡钢琴艺术学校).


    已经有练过了 ==> 有 signals existence, 已经 and 了 indicate completion of an action. In my mind, 已经有"练过"了 is structurally parallel to 已经有"這本書"了, and 昨天就有"吃饭"了 parallel to 昨天就有"這本書"了. 不講出來實在有昧良心 = 不講出來實在有"昧良心" (有"違背良心").
    朱德熙 states that "有+Ving" is grammatical (see 《语法讲义》). Thus 有來有去 and 有去無回 are grammatical, and the innovative 有看沒懂 also follows the rule.

    阿Q正傳: 殊不料這卻使百裡聞名的舉人老爺這樣
    I believe 有+V is not considered "standard" in Putongha.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  45. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    这里引的几处古文都是有问题的
    《说文注》是这样解释的:
    日不當見食也。而有食之者。孰食之。月食之也。月食之。故字从月。公羊傳注曰。不言月食之者。其形不可得而覩也。故疑言曰有食之
    我查到的版本是:凡百事之成也, 必敬之, 其败也, 必慢之,出自 荀子 議兵篇
    资治通鉴 秦昭襄王五十二年 里引用了这段话,同样是“在”,不是“有”
    杨伯峻《孟子译注》133页:有——同“又”

    古文中究竟有没有这种“有+动词”的用法?可能有吧,但是以上几个都不是。我记得朱子的《大学章句序》和《中庸章句序》里有几处“有”字的用法非常奇怪,不论怎么读都理解不了,朱子是福建、江西一带的人,可能和“有+动词”这个结构有关,也可能是其他普通的用法

    “有这样怕”在普通话里是完全正确的,“有怕”是错误的。不知道怎么解释,或许可参照形容词的情况 “有这么大”:tick: vs “有大”:cross:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  46. darren8221 Member

    Mandarin - Taiwanese
    在台灣,「有這樣(麼)怕」、「有怕」、「有怕到」、「有這麼大」、「有大」、「有大到」(「到」作為語助詞)都是大家有在說的。這些用法從台語來,全數成立。我個人是不太常說,但這樣也有通。

    當然在台灣的語法教材中沒有列入這個用法,因此這不屬於台灣的標準語法。不過因為大家都有在說,要說他「錯誤」好像有點太過,不如說是「未定義」吧。
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  47. fyl Senior Member

    Mandarin Chinese
    我指的仅是大陆的“普通话”,不是台湾人说的国语。这两种标准化的“standard Chinese”在细节上有很多不同之处,连很多非常常用的字的读音都不同,更不要说不太常见的字、词、语法了。显然不能用一个标准来评判另一个的对错。我并不是说这些用法在台语或台湾的国语里是错的。
    大陆的“普通话”也有模糊之处也有灰色地带,但是像“有+动词”这种东西,我个人反正是无法认同这个能属于灰色地带。我觉得我自己已经算是上网比较多的一类人了,各种网站论坛网络节目还算熟悉,我也仅仅是几年前看台湾的综艺节目才第一次听说这种用法。我相信大陆有很多很多普通话很好的人听不懂、至少不能精确理解这种用法的意思。用“有+动词”这个结构的人究竟有多少,我没有统计,但以我的经历,年轻网民发帖子这样写的都是很少的,还不如“港真”(讲真的)、“酱紫”(这样子)之类故意模仿以示幽默的网络语流行。生活中则是一次都没听说过。我在41楼提到了普通话测试用普通话与方言词语对照表,里面也说了这种用法是不合语法的,我相信如果在大陆的普通话考试、或者高考语文中出现了这样的用法,是会被判错的。
    还是那句话,我知道这个用法在台湾很流行,我只是说大陆“普通话”的情况。

    我能理解“有怕”,但是“有大”还是第一次听说。能解释一下“有大”是什么意思吗?是说这个东西比较大?
    我有怕他 -- 这我能理解
    西瓜有大 ??
    能举个例子吗?谢谢。
     
  48. darren8221 Member

    Mandarin - Taiwanese
    沒問題的,我也只是在說台灣國語的情況。關於「有大」的用法,例如說

    A:你怎麼全身濕?外面雨很大嗎?
    B:有,這雨有大。

    A:你覺得這房間夠大嗎?
    B:有,這房間有大。

    A:哇,這西瓜有大,我放不進冰箱。

    基本上這裡「有」是「很/好」的意思。
     
  49. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    Hi, fyl
    我們討論的重點不是哪個版本才是原版, 重點是在古代就有那種版本與語法. 譬如, "日月有食之"的說法, 見於說文解字. 說文引《春秋傳》是不是引錯了不是重點, 重點是對許慎而言, 那種語法是對的.

    至於"凡百事之成也, 必有敬之, 其败也, 必有慢之"是大陸的版本(見於沈阳, 山东, 常州, etc.), 不是臺灣加工出口的. 重點: 是大陸的版本.

    "聖人有憂之"的"有"的確是"又".
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  50. Skatinginbc

    Skatinginbc Senior Member

    Canada
    Mandarin 國語
    日有"食之” ==> "食之” 是"專有名詞"(成語), referring to 「日食」。也作「日蝕」
    日, 月有食之 ==> "之" 是 pronoun (referring to 日), "月" 是 agent.(《說文解字注》 孰食之? 月食之也)
     

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