機械がじぶんで動き出した

Pacerier

Senior Member
English / Chinese
Is it true that the following sentence:

機械がひとりでに動き出した

can also be correctly written as:

機械がじぶんで動き出した

if the speaker considers the 機械 to be "human" ? (like for example a robot that can "think" by itself)
 
  • Pacerier

    Senior Member
    English / Chinese
    hmm ok, will it sound weird to refer to a robot as じぶんで or will it actually sound quite normal?
     

    Aoyama

    Senior Member
    français Clodoaldien
    The meaning can be understood (hitoride, without ni/jibunde), but it will sound strange, even as a "writer's figure of speech" ...
    I agree with uchi.m that jidouteki ni (here, ni OK) sounds more Japanese.
    As to using "jibunde" with a robot, I would say it is possible, as a robot can be identified to a human being (provided it has a shape ressembling a human being). It would NOT apply to a robot making cars.
     

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    機械がひとりでに動き出した
    機械がひとりでに動き出した implies the machine began to move unexpectedly, freely when it was supposed to stand still.

    You could substitute 勝手に for ひとりでに in this case.:

    機械がひとりでに動き出した = 機械が勝手に動き出した
     

    Aoyama

    Senior Member
    français Clodoaldien
    You could substitute 勝手に for ひとりでに in this case.:

    機械がひとりでに動き出した = 機械が勝手に動き出した
    勝手に =whimsically (kimagureni), arbitrarily. It is also a personification of the machine.
    One question : is the に in ひとりでに really necessary ? I would think that ひとりで動き出した is enough.
    My mistake : ひとりでに is a given expression, でに is OK. I still wonder why because it defies grammar ...
     
    Last edited:

    uchi.m

    Banned
    Brazil, Portuguese
    機械がひとりでに動き出した implies the machine began to move unexpectedly, freely when it was supposed to stand still.

    You could substitute 勝手に for ひとりでに in this case.:

    機械がひとりでに動き出した = 機械が勝手に動き出した
    機械がさき止まっていた様子に反対し働きだしたわけではなく、機械が自動的に起動した、そのものを示しているんではないのかなと思っていますが。

    勝手に =whimsically (kimagureni), arbitrarily. It is also a personification of the machine.
    One question : is the に in ひとりでに really necessary ? I would think that ひとりで動き出した is enough.
    My mistake : ひとりでに is a given expression, でに is OK. I still wonder why because it defies grammar ...
    My input method editor gives me 独りでに; the で might be written as 出, perhaps? (just a guess:confused:)
     

    Pacerier

    Senior Member
    English / Chinese
    Is ひとりで even allowed? I thought it Must be ひとりでに and ひとりで would mean another thing altogether?
     

    Aoyama

    Senior Member
    français Clodoaldien
    I don't thing で can be written as 出. I think the expression is originally ひとりで with に added. The thing is that で and に employed together appear redundant or pleonastic, but it is correct.
    This being said ひとりで is very correct as well, because you can say : ひとりでbenkyosuru/ひとりでyatta/ひとりでtsukutta/ ひとりでgaishutsu shita etc.
    Now, those examples may also be constructed with ひとりでに, but I don't think the usage is common.
     
    Last edited:

    xiaolijie

    Senior Member
    UK
    English (UK)
    Is ひとりで even allowed? I thought it Must be ひとりでに and ひとりで would mean another thing altogether?
    You're right. There seems to have been some confusion between 独りでに (=spontaneously, of its own accord) and 独りで (= alone, by oneself). :)
     

    NTV

    Banned
    Japanese
    機械が独りでに動き出す。
    機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず(unexpectedly)動き出すことではありません。

    機械が独りで動き出す。
    「独りで(一人で)」と「独りでに」の意味は異なります。この文は誤りです。

    機械が勝手に動き出す。
    辞書には
    ◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意

    とあります。
    機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。
     

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    機械が独りでに動き出す。
    機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず(unexpectedly)動き出すことではありません。

    機械が勝手に動き出す。
    辞書には
    ◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意
    とあります。
    機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。


    That's my feeling I get from the sentence.
    That's why you cannot find it in your dictionary.(^_^)

    peace out >^,,^<
     

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    NTVさん said:
    機械が独りでに動き出す。
    機械が他からの力なしに動き出すことです。予期せず(unexpectedly)動き出すことではありません。

    機械が勝手に動き出す。
    辞書には
    ◇「勝手」は自分だけの都合や判断で行動する意
    とあります。
    機械は自分だけの都合や判断で動くのでしょうか。
    Umeさん NTVさん、I found some examples:

    郵便屋さんが、勝手に動き出した自分の車を止めようとしてhttp://etyuui.blogspot.com/2011/05/blog-post_2806.html

    深夜,レンジが勝手に動き出した. http://senpou.cocolog-nifty.com/sousen/2009/01/post-ccf8.html

    車が勝手に動き出した話 http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/s_wrecker24/3007532.html

    ペンが勝手に動き出したような錯覚がするほどなめらか! http://www.office21.net/sys/syousai_612_and_BLN75AW.html


    peace out >^,,^<
     
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