死ぬ Continuous vs past

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AgitoXV

New Member
English - American
I'm having a little trouble discerning the difference between the bottom two examples, I guess it's because tenses in Japanese work different than in English.

A) 犬はもう死んだ
B) 犬は死んでいる

So my questions are:
1) Don't these both mean the dog is dead? What are the nuances behind it?
2) Is there a way to express that "the dog is in the process of dying"?

How should the following sentence be understood?
3) 人の王も負けていられまい - The king of the people, as well, must not lose
 
  • Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Hello,

    The difference between 犬はもう死んだ and 死んでいる is about how the fact is presented.

    A. 死んだ reports an event that happened. You are nursing your sick dog for a few days. The dog dies one day. A friend asks you how the dog is. Your answer is something like 犬はもう死んだ.

    B. 死んでいる reports a status of an animal that you are making an observation. You see a dog lying on the street and wonder what it is doing. After checking its body, you come to the conclusion that 犬は死んでいる.

    Because death is irrevocable, -teiru, which is often used in sense of progressive, always adds to the verb the perfect sense.



    If you are reporting that the dog is dying, you can say:
    死にそうだ
    死にかけている
    死につつある

    Is the third question related to the foregoing? Unless it has a connection with the others, please create a new thread solely dedicated for it. We discuss one topic per thread in the Forums.
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    死んでいるところ sounds like the dog is willfully knowingly working to die. I find it awkward even for humans who can die on their own accord.
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    You must note that two instances of ところ in *死んでいるところ and 忘れるところ have difference uses. The process of the verb is unfolding for the former and has been stopped short of happening for the latter.

    死ぬところだった is a grammatical phrase for coming near of dying.

    死んでいるところだった is downright ungrammatical and cannot mean that someone is dying.
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Thank you for reminding.

    I cannot tell you more reasons of my perception. To die and other vebs of disappearence and extinction cannot be made progressive by V-teiru tokoro.
     

    John_Doe

    Senior Member
    Russian
    To die and other vebs of disappearence and extinction cannot be made progressive by V-teiru tokoro.
    Thank you for this clarification.

    Does the verb 盗む have such restriction? I've heard the expression 盗むところを捕える several times, and I wonder if it is possible to say 盗んでいるところ since it means "catch someone in the act of stealing something".
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Verbs I had in mind are 消える, 行方不明になる and いなくなる. 盗む is not one of them. 盗んでいるところ is fine.
     

    tos1

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    The verb 死ぬ is categorized as a punctual verb (瞬間動詞) in Japanese aspects, and its ている-form expresses not a progression but a state of result. 瞬間動詞 is a subcategory of (状態動詞).

    Example of Japanese 瞬間動詞:
    (This list might not be comprehensive.)

    死ぬ - 死んでいる means "be dead" or "has (already) been dead".
    知る - 知っている means "have (already) known" or just "know".
    壊れる - 壊れている means "be broken".
    結婚する - 結婚している means "have (already) been married".
    (明かりなどが)つく - 明かりがついている means "the light has (already) been turned on".
    触る - 触っている means "have (already) touched".
    届く - 届いている means "have (already) been arrived/received".
    決まる - 決まっている means "have (already) been decided".
    見つかる - 見つかっている means "have (already) been found".
    始まる - 始まっている means "have (already) begun/started".
    終わる - 終わっている means "have (already) ended".
    到着する - 到着している means "have (already) arrived".

    In order to use these verbs as progressive verb, we need to use other expression or to add something.
    その犬は死にそうだ
    その犬は死につつある (literary)
    その犬は死んでいる最中だ (very literary)
    その犬は死んでいる途中だ (very literary)

    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/動詞#.E7.9B.B8.E3.81.AB.E3.82.88.E3.82.8B.E5.88.86.E9.A1.9E
    動詞 - 相による分類

    http://amigo.hum.fukuoka-u.ac.jp/koga/index.php?blog/2009_11_27
    金田一の日本語動詞分類 1

    http://www.nihongokyoshi.co.jp/manbow/manbow.php?id=945&TAB=2
    動詞の分類

    http://www.tjf.or.jp/hidamari/4_mondou/mondou14.html
    V-ている

    http://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/87817/1/kgn00021_187.pdf
    瞬間動詞「知る」の振舞

    http://w01.i-next.ne.jp/~g140179870/bunporon3.html
    補助動詞 - 「~ている」の意味

    In case of some verbs like "盗んでいる", we must add some subsidiary/auxiliary words/particles in order to distinguish whether it is a progression(進行形) or a punctual(瞬間動詞).

    彼はその宝石を盗んでいる。 (unclear)
    彼はその宝石を二度も盗んでいる。 (past-tense)
    彼はその宝石をすでに盗んでいる。 (past-tense)
    彼はその宝石を今(まさに)盗んでいる(ところだ)。 (progressive)
     
    Last edited:

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    瞬間動詞 is a subcategory of (状態動詞).
    The punctual and the static verbs are independent categories at least according to Kindaichi and those who follow his ideas.


    Example of Japanese 瞬間動詞:
    ...
    触る - 触っている means "have (already) touched".
    Sawaru in sense of "come into contact with" and "offend" is a punctual verb but it can be durative (having progressive or repetitive reading for V-teiru) for usages as "grope," "feel" and "fiddle or play with." I realise the latter senses are all volitional. As I noted supra #4, forcing durative on 死んでいる let the verb assume volitional sense.

    An article that tos1 has shown us notes that punctual verbs may be used duratively depending on the context. Could volitional interpretation be one of factors?
     

    Tonky

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    An article that tos1 has shown us notes that punctual verbs may be used duratively depending on the context. Could volitional interpretation be one of factors?
    I believe so.
    An actor could say "今、死んでいるところです" to mean he is acting/pretending to be dying.
    [Example 1]
    A and B are playing around. B is lying down, pretending to be dying.
    A: ねえ、そのポーズ、なんか変だよ。*A pokes B's body*
    B: 今、死んでるところなんだ、邪魔するなよ!

    [Example 2]
    Chambara actors at rehearsal, C swishes a sword towards D, D staggers (before falling down).
    C: あんたは殺される役なんだから、ちゃんと死んでくれないと困るよ!
    D: 今、死んでいるところなんです!
    C: 時間かけすぎ・・・。​
     

    tos1

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Flaminius さん、Tonky さん

    Thank you for pointing it out.
    瞬間動詞 is a subcategory of (状態動詞). - This line is incorrect.
    Sorry, this is my mistake.
     
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