流し v. 流し台

KEYHOLDER

Member
Chinese(simplified)
流しと流し台の区別

その区別を教えてください。
ニュアンス、使用の频率など何でもいいです。
 
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  • dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    我觉得"流し台"只是指浴室水槽(洗脸和洗手),而"流し"还有其他含义:厨房水槽,公共浴室洗区,漂浮在水面上,等等。

    I think "流し台" only means bathroom sink (to wash your face and hands in), while "流し" has other meanings: kitchen sink, public bath washing area, floating on water, etc.
     

    Joschl

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    広辞苑無料検索 新明解国語辞典 said:
    流し台 [0], [3]: 台所に設けた洗い場。普通、調理台・ガス台などと組み合わせて使う。
    流し場 [0]: 湯ぶねの外に設けた、からだを洗う所。
    流し: (一) [3] 流すこと。
    (二) [3] 井戸ばたや台所で、食器・野菜などを洗ったり洗濯をしたりする所。
    (三)「流し台・流し場」の略。
    (四) [1]〔ふろ屋で〕三助にからだを洗わせること。 「―を取る」
    (五) [1] タクシー・歌手などが客を求めて、ここからあそこへと移動すること。また、その状態に在るもの。
    https://sakura-paris.org/dict/新明解国語辞典/prefix/流し
    Each number in square brackets in 新明解国語辞典 seems to indicate the position of the word accent.
    - 流し台
    [0] "nagashi-dai" or [3] "naga*shi-dai"
    - 流し場
    [0] "nagashi-ba"
    - 流し
    [3] "naga*shi" in the meaning of (一) and (二)
    [1] "*nagashi" in the meaning of (四) and (五)
     

    KLAUSED

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Each number in square brackets in 新明解国語辞典 seems to indicate the position of the word accent.
    The numbers indicate pitch accent patterns. Not only the the third syllable but also the second syllable is pronounced with a high pitch in trisyllabic words such as 流し marked with [3]. This is the same for five-syllable words like 流し台 marked with [3], although I pronounce 流し台 as [0]. Both the second and third syllables are pronounced with a high pitch, not only the third.
     

    Joschl

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    KLAUSED said:
    The numbers indicate pitch accent patterns. Not only the the third syllable but also the second syllable is pronounced with a high pitch in trisyllabic words such as 流し marked with [3]. This is the same for five-syllable words like 流し台 marked with [3], although I pronounce 流し台 as [0]. Both the second and third syllables are pronounced with a high pitch, not only the third.

    I think no one claims that only the accented more is high pitched. What really counts from the phonological viewpoint is only the position of the last high-pitched mora before the pitch drops on its adjacent mora (phonological notation: *H-L). The initial rise in pitch (L-H) has something to do with the "intonational" pitch contour that we perceive when we utter words that do not have word accents [0] or words that have the word accent on their non-initial mora [2, 3, 4, 5...]. Words having the word accent on their initial mora [1] will show the pitch contour *H-L(L....

    I think we should bear in mind that Japanese phonologists and language teachers often use the term "アクセント" in Japanese differently. From the phonological point of view, words showing the so-called "平板型アクセント" do not have a word accent [0]. It seems to me that non-phonologists use the term "アクセント" to refer to pitch contours in general, irrespective of whether they are caused by word accents or not.
     

    KLAUSED

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Each number in square brackets in 新明解国語辞典 seems to indicate the position of the word accent.
    - 流し台
    [0] "nagashi-dai" or [3] "naga*shi-dai"
    - 流し場
    [0] "nagashi-ba"
    - 流し
    [3] "naga*shi" in the meaning of (一) and (二)
    [1] "*nagashi" in the meaning of (四) and (五)
    This post makes no mention of pitch and you went straight to "word accent" by which I assumed (and still think) you meant the mora that's stressed in a word. I don't think "word accent" is a valid concept in the Japanese language.

    I think no one claims that only the accented more is high pitched.
    I certainly got the impression that's what you were claiming in your first post and, again, I don't think you stress a certain mora, making it an "accented (stressed) mora", in Japanese unless you're being emotional. Also, the accented mora in emotional speech isn't always high-pitched as can be seen in the following example where the low pitched き is stressed.

    It was YOU who said it.
    きみが(LHH)それを言ったんだ。
     

    Joschl

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    KLAUSED said:
    I certainly got the impression that's what you were claiming in your first post
    I don't know what in my post caused such a misunderstanding, besides my poor English. Sorry about that.

    When I use the term "word accent" here, I simply mean "lexical word accent" by that and do not say anything about how the lexical word accent is realised phonetically. And because I am only talking about "lexical word accent", I don't say anything about how focus prosody in accented or unaccented words is realised and perceived. I would prefer to treat them differently.

    KLAUSED said:
    This post makes no mention of pitch and you went straight to "word accent"
    Just because how the pitch contour of a word spoken in isolation looks like will be fully predictable if we know whether or not that word has an accent kernel (アクセント(の)核) and its position. Because the phonetic realisation of the accent kernel in pitch is always the same (only H*-L) in standard Japanese, we simply need to remember to realise the initial rise in pitch (%L-H), which is controlled both syntactically and pragmatically, if necessary.

    I will add the tonal notation to the numbers that I think indicate the position of the accent kernels to avoid further misunderstandings and hope that this will be less confusing. By the way, the accented variant of the word "流し台" (%LHH*-LL) is foreign to me.
    - 流し台
    "nagashi-dai"
    %LHHHH [0] or %LHH*-LL [3]
    - 流し場
    "nagashi-ba"
    %LHHH [0]
    - 流し
    "nagashi"
    %LHH*-(L) [3] in the meaning of (一) and (二)
    H*-LL [1] in the meaning of (四) and (五)
     

    KLAUSED

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    Each number in square brackets in 新明解国語辞典 seems to indicate the position of the word accent.
    I think no one claims that only the accented more is high pitched.
    英語でaccentと言うと強勢(stress)のことなので、上記のような書き方をすると高低アクセント言語である日本語にも英語のような強勢があるかのような印象を与えるのではないかと言う指摘でした。

    第二言語として日本語を学習する際にアクセント核と言う概念が学習者を益するものなのか個人的には疑問です。
    - 流し台
    "nagashi-dai"
    LHHHH [0] or LHHLL [3]
    と表記してあればその通りに発音すればいいだけなので。
     

    dojibear

    Senior Member
    English (US - northeast)
    In spoken English "stressed syllable" and "accented syllable" mean the same. But English "stress" is not loudness. English stress is a combination of 3 things: (higher) pitch + loudness + duration.

    For many English speakers, pitch is the most important. Often the other 2 cannot be heard.
    So English is a "mostly pitch-accented language".
     

    KLAUSED

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    So English is a "mostly pitch-accented language".
    This is a Japanese forum and it's completely off topic but last time I checked English was a stress-accent language. It's definitely not a pitch-accent language in the sense that Japanese is.
     

    gengo

    Senior Member
    American English
    How did this thread turn into a discussion about phonology? The OP simply said, "流しと流し台の区別を教えてください."

    I'll let the natives confirm, but my sense is that 流し is simply a shortened form of 流し台, and the two words therefore have the same basic meaning, even though one or the other may be preferred in certain situations.
     

    Joschl

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    gengo said:
    How did this thread turn into a discussion about phonology?
    "流し" changes the positions of its word accent, depending on its meanings (see #3). Apart from that, I just replied to KLAUSEDs posts #4, 6.

    gengo said:
    [...]my sense is that 流し is simply a shortened form of 流し台, and the two words therefore have the same basic meaning
    Obviously, "流し" is not only a shortened form of "流し台" but also has some other meanings that "流し台" doesn't have. If I or the majority of my compatriots used "流し" only as a shortened form of 流し台, I wouldn't ignore the other meanings of "流し" listed in a dictionary because I don't know if KEYHOLDER exclusively refers to 流し as a shortened form of 流し台 (その区別を教えてください。[...]何でもいいです。). I could speculate but I would prefer not to do.

    As far as the "synonymous" usage of the words „流し台“ and „流し“ is concerned, people can also use them to denote different things in practice (教えてgoo 台所、洗面所、流し、の呼び名について).
     
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