清新 pronunciation (-in, -ing), especially in 北方

[yuechu]

大家好！

I came across the word 清新 today, and it made me wonder about a phonetic "rule" / assumption that I read back in maybe 2007-2009 (a long time ago!). A foreigner in Beijing (if I remember correctly) had a blog in which he was talking about "-in" and "-ing" and according to this person (who was not a native speaker), multisyllabic Chinese words whose first (or other than last) character ends in "-ing" becomes "-in" since there is a syllable after.
For example, 北京's second character 京 keeps its "-ing" since it is the last character but 清新's first character 清 "qing" changes to "qin" since there is a character immediately following.

I used to take this as a rule, but now that I am no longer in a southern region (in which almost everyone combined "-in" and "-ing" as well as "si" and "shi", "chen" and "cheng", etc), I'm wondering whether this is actually how it works, or whether disyllabic words starting with "-ing" still keep their "-ing" or not when being pronounced (even though they are of course always written the same).

Thanks!

 

[SuperXW]

I came across the word 清新 today, and it made me wonder about a phonetic "rule" / assumption that I read back in maybe 2007-2009 (a long time ago!). A foreigner in Beijing (if I remember correctly) had a blog in which he was talking about "-in" and "-ing" and according to this person (who was not a native speaker), multisyllabic Chinese words whose first (or other than last) character ends in "-ing" becomes "-in" since there is a syllable after.
For example, 北京's second character 京 keeps its "-ing" since it is the last character but 清新's first character 清 "qing" changes to "qin" since there is a character immediately following.

I guess you can't find this "rule" in any official Chinese study book, because it is not a rule.
It may be a phenomenon when natives speak fast, the first "g" becomes blurry.
But when they slow down, I'm sure it is still clearly "ing".
Just like in English, I believe, "ing" sometimes becomes "in" too, but it doesn't mean that "g" doesn't exist.

In fact, if one speaks really fast, anything can be blurry, leaving only the first consonant and the last vowel distinguishable.
西红柿炒鸡蛋 becomes 胸是炒鸡蛋;
中央电视台 becomes 装垫儿台;
大家好我是鹿晗 can even become 大猴儿卵...
Not to mention Jay Chow's songs and 鸡你太美...
But they are just natives speak fast. They can become jokes, but not the rule...

 

[bragandbounce]

大家好！

I came across the word 清新 today, and it made me wonder about a phonetic "rule" / assumption that I read back in maybe 2007-2009 (a long time ago!). A foreigner in Beijing (if I remember correctly) had a blog in which he was talking about "-in" and "-ing" and according to this person (who was not a native speaker), multisyllabic Chinese words whose first (or other than last) character ends in "-ing" becomes "-in" since there is a syllable after.
For example, 北京's second character 京 keeps its "-ing" since it is the last character but 清新's first character 清 "qing" changes to "qin" since there is a character immediately following.

I used to take this as a rule, but now that I am no longer in a southern region (in which almost everyone combined "-in" and "-ing" as well as "si" and "shi", "chen" and "cheng", etc), I'm wondering whether this is actually how it works, or whether disyllabic words starting with "-ing" still keep their "-ing" or not when being pronounced (even though they are of course always written the same).

Thanks!

你好！Pronouncing 清新 as "qin xin" is wrong to me. I try to pronounce every word clearly to avoid misunderstanding, even when I am speaking very fast.

 

[dojibear]

Pronouncing "fēng" (风) as "fēn" (分) is changing sounds from /fəŋ/ to /fən/, not dropping a sound.

In both pinyin and English*, the spelling "ng" is the consonant /ŋ/, not /ng/ ("n"+"g").
In both Mandarin and English, syllables can end in either /ŋ/ or /n/.
In both languages, /ŋ/ cannot start a syllable.
In both languages, "g" and "n" are initials (can start syllables).

The unusual pinyin spelling ("ng" for ŋ) comes from English. 对不起

* - usually English "ng" is pronounced /ŋ/, but occasionaly it is /ŋg/ (never /ng/).

 

[yuechu]

Good to know! Thanks, everyone!

 

[yuechu]

I just checked Wikipedia, and although technically pinyin "-in" is [in] and pinyin "-ing" is [iŋ], I almost feel that pinyin "-ing" is [i ] (or [j]) + [əŋ]. (For example, in 行，硬，并, etc.)

Would anyone agree? (or could it somehow be between these two vowel sounds? between [iŋ] and [jəŋ]?)

EDIT: added space to [i ] so that it doesn't change text to italics after

 

[skating-in-bc]

I just checked Wikipedia, and although technically pinyin "-in" is [in] and pinyin "-ing" is [iŋ], I almost feel that pinyin "-ing" is [i ] (or [j]) + [əŋ]. (For example, in 行，硬，并, etc.)
Would anyone agree?

Yes. Due to anticipatory assimilation to the back consonant [ŋ], the place of articulation for the front vowel /i/ turns from the front of the mouth to a more central position. This phenomenon is more salient in the northern dialects (e.g., Beijing accent).

 

[yuechu]

Oh! 原來如此。謝謝，Skating-in-bc! 😃

 

[skating-in-bc]

The default pronunciation of 親 is [t͡sʰin⁵⁵] as in 親戚.
The default pronunciation of 清 is [t͡sʰɪŋ⁵⁵] as in 清澈 (Note: /ɪ/ represents a slightly lowered and retracted /i/).

The vowel difference is resulted from the anticipatory assimilation of 清 to its coda [ŋ], which is pronounced in the back of the mouth with the tongue lowered.

The anticipatory assimilation may be strengthened when the coda [ŋ] also marks the end boundary of a word/phrase (e.g., 澄清, 巴寡婦清). In this case, 清 may be pronounced as [t͡ɕʰɨ̞ŋ/t͡ɕʰɘ̝ŋ] (i.e., centralized /i/).

In casual speech, the assimilation may be weakened when it is followed by a front syllable (e.g., 清新). In this case, 清 may be pronounced as [t͡ɕʰi̞ŋ], with a slightly fronted /ŋ/, somewhat similar to the alveolar /n/ but without the tongue touching the roof of the mouth.

 

[yaemikosp]

Pronouncing "fēng" (风) as "fēn" (分) is changing sounds from /fəŋ/ to /fən/, not dropping a sound.

In case you are unaware of that, feng /fɤŋ/ and fen /fən/ have different vowels. The former is a backer and closer vowel just as the e in 俄, and my tongue is positioned lower, which makes my mouth somewhat more open, while I pronounce the latter.

(Ignore me if you knew it already and were just typing the wrong IPA symbol)

 

[dojibear]

Thanks. It is probably similar to the effect described in post #9. I didn't notice this. In post #4, I was focussed on the different nasal consonant. In the US, it is common to think (以为) that in English:
- written "-ng" is pronounced /ng/ (it is /ŋ/)
- written "-nk" is pronounced /nk/ (it is /ŋk/)

The former is a backer and closer vowel just as the e in 俄

I've noticed the vowel sound in 饿/俄, which is hard for me to pronounce. To my English hearing, that isn't the same vowel sound as the one in 鞥 or 风.

I never assume that each "vowel" letter in pinyin has a sound. I assume that each final has a sound.

 

[yaemikosp]

I've noticed the vowel sound in 饿/俄, which is hard for me to pronounce. To my English hearing, that isn't the same vowel sound as the one in 鞥 or 风.

It's reasonable to find it hard to notice some subtle nuances when it comes to a second language. Like when I was told that "can" and "can't" had different vowel lengths in English for the first time in spite of the fact they shared the same vowel /æ/ when stressed, I still couldn't tell the difference even after listening to the audio again and again.