父亲

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  • gambheer

    New Member
    Marathi - India
    I always felt that I should pronounce all the tones, just to be on the safe side.
    But today I said 士兵 "soldier" with both the tones (4 followed by 1) and my Chinese friend had no idea what I was saying. I repeated myself several times and was finally forced to write it down. He told me I should have used the neutral tone for the second character.

    Please note that I normally have no trouble communicating with Chinese people. They have even complimented me on my pronunciation.
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    I always felt that I should pronounce all the tones, just to be on the safe side.
    Not really. In some words you do have to use the neutral tone (otherwise it can become unintelligible), e.g. 椅子.
    But for 父亲, both tones can be understood by everyone, I believe. (Though the neutral tone is the more natural one to me.)
    And for 士兵, you should only use the first tone for 兵. If one said shi4bing, I would never understand it. I have no idea how you pronounced this word without hearing it, and I have no idea why your Chinese friend said that (is it possible that he actually meant "you have pronounced a neutral tone" but made some mistakes in English?). But anyway to most people it should be shi4bing1.
     
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    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    父親 = 父 , 桌子 = 桌 It makes perfect sense to me that the suffix 親 is pronounced with a neutral tone since it carries little meaning. Exception: 父親節 fu4 qin1 jie2 ==> Qin (neutral tone) here would sound really strange.

    士兵 = 兵 The first character 士 is a bound morpheme. It is the second character (i.e., 兵) that carries the bulk of semantics, and it is therefore utterly wrong in my view to pronounce it with a neutral tone.
     
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    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    But today I said 士兵 "soldier" with both the tones (4 followed by 1) and my Chinese friend had no idea what I was saying. I repeated myself several times and was finally forced to write it down. He told me I should have used the neutral tone for the second character.
    That's weird...Native Chinese should all require the first tone for 兵.
     

    sheland

    New Member
    Chinese-China
    fùqīn is usually used in South China, especially Taiwan, and Guangzhou.
    fùqin is normally used in North China, when you listen to the News broadcasting on CCTV, it will be fùqin.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    It's interesting that although standard Mandarin requires 父亲 to be pronounced fùqin (and not fùqīn), it requires 母亲 to be pronounced mǔqīn instead of mǔqin. I would have expected both to have a neutral final syllable.
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    It's interesting that although standard Mandarin requires 父亲 to be pronounced fùqin (and not fùqīn), it requires 母亲 to be pronounced mǔqīn instead of mǔqin. I would have expected both to have a neutral final syllable.
    My experience:
    It is natural to pronounce either mǔqīn or mǔqin.
    However, only fùqin is natural. fùqīn is not natural.
    I don't know why.

    By the way, the first tone and neutral tone can sound similar.
     

    albert_laosong

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    I think it may be related to the previous character, it's more natural to pronounce it as the 1st tone when it's connected with 母3,while rather weird when it's connected with 父4.
     

    SimonTsai

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    I sometimes pronounce the '親' in '父' with the neutral tone but the first for that in '母' always.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    That's the opposite of people in China: they sometimes pronounce 母亲 as mǔqin and sometimes as mǔqīn but always pronounce 父亲 as fùqin.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    fùqīn is usually used in South China, especially Taiwan, and Guangzhou.
    fùqin is normally used in North China, when you listen to the News broadcasting on CCTV, it will be fùqin.
    I am not surprised that it is acceptable to pronounce 父亲 as fùqīn in the South (but unacceptable in the North). The reason is that I have noticed that people in the South hardly ever use the neutral tone.

    For example, they pronounce 朋友 as péngyǒu, even though this pronunciation is unacceptable in the North, just like fùqīn. Similarly, Southerners pronounce 休息 (to rest) as xiūxí, even though this is unacceptable in the North. A third example is 明白 (to understand), which Southerners pronounce míngbái.
     
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    Erebos12345

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    "unacceptable"? I'm sure, (with a little bit of effort), most people are capable of "accepting" non-local dialects and pronunciations and that most of them aren't going to chase you out of town with torches and pitchforks. :rolleyes:
     

    SuperXW

    Senior Member
    I am not surprised that it is acceptable to pronounce 父亲 as fùqīn in the South (but unacceptable in the North). The reason is that I have noticed that people in the South hardly ever use the neutral tone.

    For example, they pronounce 朋友 as péngyǒu, even though this pronunciation is unacceptable in the North, just like fùqīn. Similarly, Southerners pronounce 休息 (to rest) as xiūxí, even though this is unacceptable in the North. A third example is 明白 (to understand), which Southerners pronounce míngbái.
    I think you might overstate the barriers among accents a bit.
    1.
    If their accents are different, normal people will NOT claim others "unacceptable/uncomfortable/cannot understand". At most, they may say some accents are "non-standard/funny".
    2.
    Neutral tone is not as hard as Er. I think Many Southerners are used to the neutral tone too.
    3.
    If we use numbers to mark the pitches of tones, 1st (high-flat) tone is 55, neutral tone can be 2, 3 or even 4. If one speak slow, extending 4 to 44, the neutural tone will become similar to the 1st tone: 55.
    See here: Neutral tone - Chinese Pronunciation Wiki
    I think that's exactly why 母亲 mu3qin1 and mu3qin0 are not so different after all.
    1598847158034.png

    3.
    péngyǒu is acceptable in both North and South. When reciting a poem, péngyǒu is even recommended.
    When one speak the neutral tone slowly, it often becomes a dropping tone, for example, from 3 to 32.
    Then you will find peng35you21(3rd) and peng35you32(neutral) are similar too.
    1598847036549.png
    1598847355189.png

    4.
    As far as I know, xiūxí is mainly Tainwanese pronunciation.
    5.
    One feature of Taiwanese Mandarin is that their tones are more closed to the "original one" assigned to the character, with fewer weakened tones. Unlike Beijing Mandarin, which is rather flexible, following the speakers idea and mood.
    Taipei: 不bu35要51这51样51啦21
    Beijing: 不bu36要51这41样3啦2
    But I don't think it represent all Southern accents.
     

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    Shazhudao945

    Senior Member
    Chinese - Mainland China
    It based on where your friend comes from.
    As far as I heard in HK and TW videos, they use fùqīn instead of fùqin in cases where fùqin is used in Mandarin.
    If you are learning Chinese, both are OK, I believe most of us who come from PRC understand both.
    If you are going to apply for an exam like HSK, I suggest you stick to your textbook
     
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