話すんじゃなかった

KaleNovice

Senior Member
Chinese
What's the meaning of 話すんじゃなかった? It's translated to " I shouldn't have told it" ? How does the conjugation work here?
Thank you in advance!
 
  • karlalou

    Banned
    母国語:日本語
    Yes, 話すんじゃなかった and 話さなきゃよかった mean just the same to us, and both are used to mean a regret, "I shouldn't have told it".

    Actually, however, it's 話すものではなかった, and literally says "It was not the thing to tell".
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    話すんじゃなかった is a contraction of 話すのではなかった, which is he past form of 話すのではない.

    While 話すものではない is not so much different from this use of のだ or のではない, のだ and ものだ are different in many ways. I try to capture one of their differences is the following pair:
    a. 10キロも走ったら喉が乾くのだ。
    b. 10キロも走ったら喉が乾くものだ。

    Sentence a. implies that there is someone who is actually thirsty or at least someone who tends to be thirsty after a 10-kilometre run. The speaker can deliver by this sentence as an indirect request for water. Sentence b., however, denotes a more normative judgment. It means people usually get thirsty after a 10-kilometre run. There need not be a specific person who is thirsty or tends to be thirsty. In fact Sentence b. can be said to someone who refuses water after a long run. This intent of b. then is, "Why don't you need water?"
     

    karlalou

    Banned
    母国語:日本語
    They seem to be the same to me. It's only a matter of style.

    10キロも走ったら喉が乾くのだ。そういうものだ。

    10キロも走ったら喉が乾くものだ。そういうものだ。

    活用語に付いて)その語を名詞と同じ資格にすることを表す。「読むのが速い」「こんなのが欲しい」(デジタル大辞泉|の [ 準体助]
    のだ is derived from this.
    [連語]《準体助詞「の」+断定の助動詞「だ」》(同上|のだ [連語]
    の in [verb]+の+だ・です・が・で etc. is making the verb phrase into a noun. You can substitute the の with a simple noun like もの, if もの doesn't work very well, then こと might work (I think I've seen an instance or two that とき replaces の, or maybe they were something else..).

    Well, 話すことではなかった might serve better if you like.

    I can't keep checking things for you. I repeat. Please check needed things at least before starting argument against someone.
     
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    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    b. 10キロも走ったら喉が乾くものだ。
    Good catch. もの 四「形式名詞」1▪ア

    活用語に付いて)その語を名詞と同じ資格にすることを表す。「読むのが速い」「彼を行かせるのはまずい」「こんなのが欲しい」
    This explains "a" only.
    I think the OP is 話すのではなかった。, too.
     

    KaleNovice

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    説明してくれてありがとうございます!「ものではない」とか「のではない」とか、初心者としてこの私には大事なことではないんですから,大体の意味が分かるかぎりいいです!
    (Thank you for all the explanations! For a beginner like me, it's not such a big deal as to whether it's 「ものではない」or 「のではない」, as long as I understand the gist of it!) << English translation in case you don't understand my broken Japanese :D
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Kale, one of the things you wanted to know was the morphological make-up of this expression. It's derived from のではない. While ものではない is similar to のではない in some aspects, you cannot use the former to express regret over what has happened. This may be your first encounter with sentence-final expressions like these, but you might as well understand subtle differences they have.

    The expression ものだ is deontic; that is to say, it is used for expressing an ordering or the way things are. The negative of this expression is used for prohibiting something. The past form of this expression describes norms in the past as in:
    本当は囲炉裏端でひそひそ話すもの。大勢を相手に話すものじゃなかった (『朝日新聞』2002年11月28日朝刊)。

    In contrast, のだった and its negative のではなかった express regrets over what DID NOT happen and what DID happen (in this order). In other words, they speak in modus irrealis.
    • もっときっぱり断るのだった - The speaker did not turn down an offer firm enough and something bad came out of it. Now he/she regrets it but it is too late.
    • あんなにいい話を断るんじゃなかった - The speaker declined an offer and it later turned out to be a very profitable one. But too late; someone else already took it, hence the speaker's regret over their past judgment.
     

    KaleNovice

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    Thank you Flaminius! Your explanation on the nuances regarding the expression of regret is very helpful! I have always had confusion concerning the use of "の” after verb, not sure when the presence of "の” is required in a sentence. Japanese is sure hard ! :(
     

    karlalou

    Banned
    母国語:日本語
    How is it conjugated if so?
    すきなんだ= [na-adjective (すきな like)]+[noun (の/ん)]+[verb (be)].
    の:活用語に付いて)その語を名詞と同じ資格にすることを表す。(デジタル大辞泉|の [ 準体助]
    のだ:[連語] 1 理由や根拠を強調した断定の意を表す。2 話し手の決意、または相手に対する要求・詰問の意を表す。 3 事柄のようすやあり方を強調して説明する意を表す。(同上|のだ
    I find it's not necessarily emphasizing, in fact, sometimes it's rather cushioning (すきなんだ) when compared the one without it (すきだ), but it seems always explanatory.

    (あめ)がふっている is an expression we say when we directly notice it's raining like by actually watching it.
    雨がふっているのだ is an expression we say when we indirectly learn it's raining like by hearing the sound or watching people outside using umbrellas.

    It's hard to replace the の with もの if it's あなたがすきなんです, while ピザがすきなんです can easily become ピザがすきなものです.

    話すんじゃなかった is so clearly explained the meaning by breaking it into 話す+もの+では+ない/なかった, and べき is a helping verb and not a noun, so, we can't replace the の with べき.

    And sometimes without の a sentence becomes clumsy: sometimes it seems needed only to make the flow smooth.
     

    frequency

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    すきなんだ is すきなのだ, and this の is just changed to ん by dropping vowel o.

    「のだ」
    話し言葉では「んだ」「のです」となることも多い
    And yours is 1. ①原因・理由・根拠などの説明を強く述べる。


    Your 話すんじゃなかった is 話すのではなかった, as Flam said. This 「のでは」is just changed to 「んじゃ」. That's all. The のでは is different to のだ in 「すきなのだ」.(Or 話すのでは and すきなのだ might be similar or be related with each other..sorry I'm not sure.)

    きみがすきだ・きみがすきなんだ never becomes きみがすきなものです。, as you kale may know.
    This sounds like
    1 Sb is the person who likes you. If it's "I", it's "I'm the person who likes you".
    2 This is the thing/what you like.


    The word もの for showing a reason usually needs in a sentence its result of it.
    きみのことがすきなもので、だからいつも覗き見しているんです。
    (This often can be きみのことがすきなもんで、だからいつも覗き見しているんです。)
     
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