讀音:一 / 疑 / 義 (聲調, 音長)

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M Mira

Senior Member
Mandarin
[『一億』與『疑義』以及『一支』與『義肢』中"i"的聲調,]我想請教一下這裡的各位在說話的時候這兩組詞的念法是否相同?

我的情況是前後兩個『一』不但分別有二和四聲的音調變化,同時兩者又都只有輕聲的長度,和『疑』、『義』和其它的輕聲都有差異。我試過問幾個我的熟人,但他們好像原本都沒有意識到,聽到我這麼問之後才第一次聽說,所以也問不出原本到底有沒有下意識的念法差異,所以就來這裡發問了。
 
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  • fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    同時兩者又都只有輕聲的長度
    我的猜测是受台语影响,仍然保留有“入声”。最近我在网上听江浙一带的人说国语,仔细听能听出很多入声字。据此推测受闽南语、客家话等其他南方话影响的人(以及受这些被影响过的人影响的人),在说话的时候可能也会有类似的现象。
    我想如果母语和语言环境完全没有入声(比如我),是分不出这两组字的。
     
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    retrogradedwithwind

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    入声和方言的影响只是一部分原因,还有其他原因。
    如一,不,这俩字都有变声的。字典上有标。
    一在四声前读二声,其他读四声。
    一个,一定
    一只,一种,一直
    不过也不一定了,所有四声发音在实际中都有可能。

    这是正常的语音流变现象。可百度。
    唱歌时这种现象非常明显。仔细听歌手的发音,再对照歌词,会发现很多字根本发不准——现在的歌,不看词光靠耳朵听,能听懂的有多少?古人也注意到这种现象,才有倚声填词之说。京剧中的字音,也是自成体系,和标准音不同。
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    入声和方言的影响只是一部分原因,还有其他原因。
    如一,不,这俩字都有变声的。字典上有标。
    楼主的问题显然已经考虑过变调了。他的问题是,变调之后,“一”字和“疑”、“义”是否有区别。
    如果非要从变调的角度考虑,据我所知,在一些方言里,“一”字的变调规则确实和普通话不同,比如“一直”在我的母语里需要变阳平而非去声,“一只”在某些东北方言(如果我没听错)中不变调。但是这种不同是声调的不同,不会出现类似短促轻声的现象。
     

    retrogradedwithwind

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    确实,一不在古语里都是入声。某些方言区还读入声也正常。听说吴语里不读如“弗(入声)”?我看康熙字典上这么写的。
     

    M Mira

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    謝謝兩位的回答。其實我就連其它台灣人會不會這樣念都問不明白,但又覺得不太可能是我自己發明出來的差異。至少現在確定了一般的變調結果是不會跟一般的二、四聲有長短的差別的。
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    听说吴语里不读如“弗(入声)”?我看康熙字典上这么写的。
    我一直怀疑“不”,“弗”其实应该是同一个词(汉语中的f声母基本都是从p、b变来的,中古音没有f),搞不好甚至“否”,“毋”,“非”,“无”,“没”等(或其中一部分)可能也跟它们有关(这些字声母都是唇音bpmfw),扯远了:D
     

    retrogradedwithwind

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    我一直怀疑“不”,“弗”其实应该是同一个词(汉语中的f声母基本都是从p、b变来的,中古音没有f),搞不好甚至“否”,“毋”,“非”,“无”,“没”等(或其中一部分)可能也跟它们有关(这些字声母都是唇音bpmfw),扯远了:D
    是有可能。去图书馆翻闲书,看到一份研究,就是研究声母转化的。记得一个例子是,河北顺平县,方言称蚂蚁为pi2hu5,作者研究说该方言词即蚍蜉之转音....
    扯远了,再多说版主要删帖了。
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    [『一億』與『疑義』以及『一支』與『義肢』中"i"的聲調,]這兩組詞的念法是否相同?
    相同 in careful speech.
    我的情況是前後兩個『一』不但分別有二和四聲的音調變化,同時兩者又都只有輕聲的長度,和『疑』、『義』和其它的輕聲都有差異。...到底有沒有下意識的念法差異,
    有差異 in casual speech.
    Definitions:
    Neutral tone: 輕聲 atonic
    Reduced or flattened tone: the pitch contour is reduced or flattened somewhat by not fully realizing the final part of the tone or by not starting from the supposed pitch level. For example: 老師 Careful speech (214+55) vs. Casual speech (21+55, the 3rd tone 老 is pronounced without its final rise in pitch).
    義肢 (51+55) vs. 一支 (53+55)
    疑義 (35+51) vs. 一億 (45+51)
    A reduced tone, which involves incomplete realization of the tone and thus may sometimes result in slightly shortened syllable length, is perhaps what you said "都只有輕聲的長度".
     

    brofeelgood

    Senior Member
    English, 中文
    Hey Skating, could you shed some light on the significance of those numbers e.g. 51+55 and 53+55, and where I can learn more about them? It seems to be a useful way to discern the nuances in pronunciation. Many thanks.

    Edit: Ok, found it, no worries.
     
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    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    有差異 in casual speech. ...A reduced tone
    I'm quite curious about this, because to me no matter in careful or causal speech, "一" in "一支" is always a full 4th tone, and '老' in '老师' is always a half 3rd tone (214+55 sounds wrong), so they are different things in my speech. I always thought incomplete realizations of tones are mostly because of pronouncing the full tone is too awkward. But 義肢 or 一支 is not difficult to pronounce at all. I'm doubting what I was thinking now...

    Does the special flattened tone also appear in other words? I watched an online video (in Mandarin) before and could figure out many 入声字, because speaker was using a somehow flattened short tone for those characters. (And all characters with that tone are 入声字, though not the other way around.) Maybe that tone is similar to the 一 here. I can't find the video anywhere, but I just now found a different one with only a few occasions of the same special tone: Search "曾仕強 易經的奧秘 何為易經" on Youtube or Youku. How would you pronounce the red characters?
    际上 (youtube 2:00, youku 1:30)
    部分 (youtube 2:35, youku 1:05)
    羲 (youtube 3:58, youku 3:28)
     
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    brofeelgood

    Senior Member
    English, 中文
    I'm quite curious about this, because to me no matter in careful or causal speech, "一" in "一支" is always a full 4th tone, and '老' in '老师' is always a half 3rd tone (214+55 sounds wrong), so they are different things in my speech. I always thought incomplete realizations of tones are mostly because of pronouncing the full tone is too awkward. But 義肢 or 一支 is not difficult to pronounce at all. I'm doubting what I was thinking now...

    Does the special flattened tone also appear in other words? I watched an online video (in Mandarin) before and could figure out many 入声字, because speaker was using a somehow flattened short tone for those characters. (And all characters with that tone are 入声字, though not the other way around.) Maybe that tone is similar to the 一 here. I can't find the video anywhere, but I just now found a different one with only a few occasions of the same special tone: Search "曾仕強 易經的奧秘 何為易經" on Youtube or Youku. How would you pronounce the red characters?
    际上 (youtube 2:00, youku 1:30)
    部分 (youtube 2:35, youku 1:05)
    羲 (youtube 3:58, youku 3:28)
    Just watched it.

    - He used a dropping 41.
    - Descending 55.
    - Sounds like a dropping 55, maybe even a 33.

    Personally, I would use 35 for all three.
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    1: low pitch
    2: mid-low pitch
    3: mid pitch
    4: mid-high pitch
    5: high pitch
    first tone (55): starting with a high pitch and keeping the pitch the same until the end.

    To me, the underlying tone for "一" is actually the first tone (i.e., 55). The tone change associated with "一" in various linguistic environments is a result of tone sandhi, an anticipatory dissimilation in tone. Because less time is available for the brain to do the "anticipatory" judgment in casual or fast speech, the underlying tone (first tone in this case) plays a more significant role insofar as the tone starts with a relatively high pitch (as demanded by the first tone) and the entire tone contour is flattened somewhat as if to keep the tone relatively steady.
    Thus in casual or fast speech, 易天 and 一天 (also 異心 vs. 一心) are realized somewhat differently:
    易天易天又易天, 朝局變亂幾時休 => The underlying tone for 易 is the fourth tone, and it is realized as such even in casual speech.
    一天一天又一天, 光陰虛度幾時休 ==> The underlying tone for 一 is the first tone, and it is realized as a flattened or reduced ("half") fourth tone in casual speech as a result of "limited" anticipatory dissimilation.
    有疑樣舶物 ==> The underlying tone for 疑 is the second tone, and it is realized as such even in casual speech.
    有一樣舶物 (Note: 一 can be omitted as in 我有樣舶物, 想讓您瞧瞧) ==> The underlying tone for 一 is the first tone, and it is realized as a flattened or reduced ("half") second tone in casual speech as a result of "limited" anticipatory dssimilation. The syllable length for 一, which is not an obligatory part of the phrase, may be slightly shortened.
     
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    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    Thank you, brofeelgood and Skatinginbc!
    It is interesting to learn that in Taiwan Mandarin, the underlying pronunciation is somehow more like "character by character" (in these words involving "一").
     
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    Youngfun

    Senior Member
    Wu Chinese & Italian
    很多年轻的浙江人,虽然地方口音不是很重(并不因方言的影响而发入声),但是一般都不遵守“一”的变调规则。因为小学的语文里从来没教过。所以“一”始终读第一声 yi1。
     

    M Mira

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    Thank you, brofeelgood and Skatinginbc!
    It is interesting to learn that in Taiwan Mandarin, the underlying pronunciation is somehow more like "character by character" (in these words involving "一").
    我聽不太懂你的意思…漢語不就是一個字一個字讀的嗎?還是說你是指前後的字不會互相影響?(台灣「一」是有變調的,連續的三聲也會變成類似二聲)
    很多年轻的浙江人,虽然地方口音不是很重(并不因方言的影响而发入声),但是一般都不遵守“一”的变调规则。因为小学的语文里从来没教过。所以“一”始终读第一声 yi1。
    教育部國語辭典只有給「一」一個音「ㄧ」,寫作拼音是"yī",所有有「一」的詞彙也就是那個音。不過「一」的條目下就自打嘴巴:(「一」字單用或在一詞一句的末尾,讀陰平聲;在去聲字前,讀陽平聲;在陰平、陽平、上聲之前,讀去聲。)
    不記得課堂上有說過,應該就只是耳濡目染就學會變調了,但不知為何腦子裡總把它想成是有一聲和輕聲兩個念法。

    我個人是覺得就發音來講,閩南語和客家話對中華民國國語(不是「台灣國語」)的影響應該很小,基本上應該是直接繼承自3、40年代的南京/上海國語,而發音不標準在小學是會被同學笑說在講"tai2 'oan1 go2 'i3"(「台灣國語」)的。除了bopomo->buopuomuo, bpmf + -eng -> bpmf + -ong已經很普及以外,講台灣國語是會被當鄉巴佬的。
     

    Skatinginbc

    Senior Member
    Mandarin 國語
    教育部國語辭典只有給「一」一個音「ㄧ」,寫作拼音是"yī",所有有「一」的詞彙也就是那個音。
    That is what I called "underlying tone".
    不過「一」的條目下就自打嘴巴:(「一」字單用或在一詞一句的末尾,讀陰平聲;在去聲字前,讀陽平聲;在陰平、陽平、上聲之前,讀去聲。
    Those tone changes are what I called "anticipatory dissimilation".
     

    fyl

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    我聽不太懂你的意思…漢語不就是一個字一個字讀的嗎?還是說你是指前後的字不會互相影響?(台灣「一」是有變調的,連續的三聲也會變成類似二聲)
    我感觉我自己在说话的时候,似乎没有Skatinginbc说的"less time is available for the brain",更像是整个词“一支”一下子就完整地蹦出来了,并没有想到“一”字的标准读音。我感觉如果不是整个词整个词的往外蹦,北方里那么多轻声儿化和其他不规则的变声我肯定是反应不过来的。事实上,我平时说话要是故意口音稍微重一点,可以夹杂很多完全写不出来的方言字,既然不知道怎么写,脑子里自然也不会有“这个字的标准读音”是什么这种想法。

    Edit:
    我又仔细揣摩了一下我自己的发音,在读得特别快的情况下,“一”字也可能变平,但是主要是受相邻字和重音/非重音影响。比如“拿一个”说快了,一会变平;但是“有一个”就不会。

    不記得課堂上有說過,應該就只是耳濡目染就學會變調了
    这样的话,我觉得台湾人说话应该也是直接想到一词的发音才比较说得通。可能是上学的时候比较认真,老师指着“一”不断强调这个念“yi1”,印象比较深刻:D
     
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