院子的两边是东西厢房

Konstantinos

Senior Member
Greek - Athens
大门一般开在东南角或西北角,院中的北房是正房,比其他房屋的规模大,一般包括长辈的卧室和具备日常起居、接待客人等功能的客厅。院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。在正房和厢房之间建有走廊,可以供人行走和休息。

Hi all, this is from the Standard Course Book of HSK5, chapter 14.

I try to understand the following sentence: 院子的两边是东西厢房

厢房 means wing room? Something like a room that overhangs out as wing?

东西 means east and west (not thing)? Is it pronounced dong1 xi1? Why baidu while translate it as east and west in this sentence, says that here it is pronounced dong1 xi? Actually how different are the dong1 xi1 and dong1 xi pronunciations?

Finally, how can I make all this clause have sense?

院子(courtyard)的两边(two sides / both sides)是(be)东西(east and west)厢房(wing room)?

On both sides of the courtyard, there are east and west wing rooms?

It does not make much sense to me.

提前感谢。
 
  • pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    大门一般开在东南角或西北角,院中的北房是正房,比其他房屋的规模大,一般包括长辈的卧室和具备日常起居、接待客人等功能的客厅。院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。在正房和厢房之间建有走廊,可以供人行走和休息。

    Hi all, this is from the Standard Course Book of HSK5, chapter 14.

    I try to understand the following sentence: 院子的两边是东西厢房

    厢房 means wing room? Something like a room that overhangs out as wing?

    They are not rooms for things.

    东西 means east and west (not thing)? Is it pronounced dong1 xi1? Why baidu while translate it as east and west in this sentence, says that here it is pronounced dong1 xi? Actually how different are the dong1 xi1 and dong1 xi pronunciations?

    Finally, how can I make all this clause have sense?

    院子(courtyard)的两边(two sides / both sides)是(be)东西(east and west)厢房(wing room)?

    On both sides of the courtyard, there are east and west wing rooms?

    It does not make much sense to me.

    提前感谢。
    Take a look at 什么是厢房?东厢房和西厢房各是做什么用的?_百度知道, where there is an image of 厢房. They are side rooms or chambers - not ones that "hang out like a wing". And see 什么是厢房?东厢房和西厢房各是做什么用的?_百度知道 too.

    The 东厢房 is on the east side, and the 西厢房 is on the west side. They are not rooms for things. The text you have quoted shows they are rooms for the younger generations of the family, 晚辈们.

    Dong1xi1 is appreciably differently pronounced from dong1xi. I think the neutral tone is pronounced more towards the middle of the tonal range. So xi1 is 5-5 (but in dong1xi1 the second high tone in a row may be slightly lower than the first, and so it might be dong55xi44, but most Chinese people cannot tell you how they realise the tones in running speech, so you will have to make up your own mind on that). Dong1xi is dong55xi3. But on that point, it would be advisable to wait for a correction from a native speaker, particularly the educated linguists on this forum.

    On the point of two first tones together and the second syllable being (slightly) lower, see the pronunciation of 发烧 in forvo. The first and third pronunciations shown there are correct, and the second and fourth are just people pronouncing 发烧 ludicrously slowly and not showing the correct pronunciation. The pronunciation given there by witenglish is especially ridiculous.
     
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    azhong

    Senior Member
    Traditional Chinese
    大门一般开在东南角或西北角,院中的北房是正房,比其他房屋的规模大,一般包括长辈的卧室和具备日常起居、接待客人等功能的客厅。院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。在正房和厢房之间建有走廊,可以供人行走和休息。
    [1]厢房 means wing room? Something like a room that overhangs out as wing?
    [2] 东西 means east and west (not thing)?
    [1] I don't know what "a room that overhangs out as wing" is. I hope pimlicodude's explanation and the webpage he linked can help.
    2. Yes. here it means 东、西。
    Is it pronounced dong1 xi1? Why baidu while translate it as east and west in this sentence, says that here it is pronounced dong1 xi? Actually how different are the dong1 xi1 and dong1 xi pronunciations?
    I think pimlicodude's delicate explanation is correct, but I'll leave this for northern Chinese to comment; I'm from Taiwan, and my ancestors were southern Chinese.
    Basically, to simplify your problem, I think you can also read dong1 xi1 and won't get yourself misunderstood or laughed. I think it's just a minor difference between Southern Chinese and Northern Chinese just like 兒化音.
    院子(courtyard)的两边(two sides / both sides)是(be)东西(east and west)厢房(wing room)?

    On both sides of the courtyard, there are east and west wing rooms?
    What if,
    On both sides of the courtyard, there are east room(s)* and west room(s)*?
    (i.e. On the east side there is/are room(s)* named 東廂房, and on the west side, 西廂房.)
    [*] I am not sure if it's possible to have more than one room on each side, so I put "(s)". We need confirmations from other members.
     

    benjamin zhong

    Member
    Chinese
    dong1 xi1 means east and west respectively.
    dong1 xi means a thing or person in general. For example, 他是个什么东西?【literally means what a person is he?with a derogatory sense】
     

    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    Thank you all for your answers. Why do I feel that something like 上,中,在,里 is missed?

    在院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    在院子的两边中是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边上是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边里是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    What is your opinion?
     

    yangyi chen

    New Member
    Chinese
    Thank you all for your answers. Why do I feel that something like 上,中,在,里 is missed?

    在院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    在院子的两边中是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边上是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边里是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    What is your opinion?
    no missed,why do you think so
     

    henter

    Senior Member
    Chinese
    这个指的是老北京四合院或者古代社会类似这种大园子里的东厢房和西厢房。中国古代社会的不少人都是住在园子里,尤其是有钱人和官宦人家。四面高墙。院口摆石狮。还有打手=相当于保镖-护院。穷人是例外。



    现代社会不用这个词了。现在都是住在高楼。这个不可能有厢房。 北京只有很有钱的那种在郊区还有这种园子。我看过一个视频。有一个住在北京的故意显摆。拍摄了一个视频就是关于他在北京的院子。他说这个院子光装修就千万。很好笑的是里面一些房间的摆设和设施其实是外国风格。墙上还有仿制的外国名画。 有些房子还摆着外国雕塑。古代中国的这种园子和北京传统四合院没有这些外国文化元素的。

    我住的城市也有类似的院子。现在基本都是景点的一部分;有一些以前是普通人住宅或者官府。还有一种院子前面都是竹子或者四面都是竹子。很适合读书的地方。现在这种地方也是景点了。一些有钱人会在郊区建休闲设施和私人会所, 包括别墅。也许也有类似红楼梦里大观园这样的院子.
     
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    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    Thank you all for your answers. Why do I feel that something like 上,中,在,里 is missed?

    在院子的两边是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    在院子的两边中是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边上是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    院子的两边里是东西厢房,是晚辈们生活的地方。

    What is your opinion?
    Nothing is missed out. It means "at the two sides". At = 在. It's not "in" or "on", but "at".

    As for prepositional usage, learners are taught 在...里 etc, but the 在 is often omitted. For example, 你家里都有什么人? (who is there in your family?) It is difficult to come up with a simple explanation of when you say 家里 and when you say 在家里. On the Internet, I found "有时候在家里待久了". This is because 在家里 connects with 待 (待在家里). Maybe you can just get a feel for when the 在 can be left out. In any case, in the sentence above, there is no need for "in" (院子的两边 does not require "in"). 我在家, I'm at home. 我在家里喝茶。

    As for "on", in English we might say "on the side" as well as "at the side", but 院子的两边 doesn't require "on" (on top of the side doesn't make any sense). In other sentences, 在...上 might be used, but often just as 上. On the Internet, I found 中国在世界上的文化影响力有多大? But 世界上, "in the world" often has no 在. 世界上最大的生物是什么?

    中is even less appropriate. "In the middle of the sides?" Once again, 在...中is often 中. There is a song where I heard 仿佛中.
     

    azhong

    Senior Member
    Traditional Chinese
    院子的两边是东西厢房,
    Why do I feel that something like 上,中,在,里 is missed?
    I think Konstantinos is saying he thought these prepositional words are necessary and can't be omitted in that sentence.
    But this is Chinese. In short, Chinese is more flexible than English in these small words. e.g.
    你家里都有(些)什么人? (who is there in your family?)
    can also be said as
    你家都有(些)什么人?
    "有时候在家里待久了".
    can also be said as "有时候在家待久了".
    我在家里喝茶。
    我在家喝茶
    中国在世界上的文化影响力有多大?
    中国在世界的文化影响力有多大?
    世界上最大的生物是什么?
    世界最大的生物是什么?

    You might need time to read more and then you will have better senses in it. Basically, I'll say it's more flexible compared to English in leaving out prepositional words.
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    I think Konstantinos is saying he thought these prepositional words are necessary and can't be omitted in that sentence.
    But this is Chinese. In short, Chinese is more flexible than English in these small words. e.g.

    can also be said as
    你家都有(些)什么人?

    can also be said as "有时候在家待久了".

    我在家喝茶

    中国在世界的文化影响力有多大?

    世界最大的生物是什么?

    You might need time to read more and then you will have better senses in it. Basically, I'll say it's more flexible compared to English in leaving out prepositional words.
    All the sentences I quoted were - and I think I stated it - found on the Internet.
     
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    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    Thank you all for your answers.

    Me too, I believe that the in / on is kinda mandatory in Chinese.

    So being omitted here, this is my attempt:

    院子(courtyard)的两边(two sides / both sides)是(be)东西(east and west)厢房(wing rooms)

    The two sides of the courtyard are east and west wing rooms. It means that the east side of the courtyard is a set of wing rooms and the west side of the courtyard is also a set of wing rooms.

    With omitting in / on I cannot make it have another sense.
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    Me too, I believe that the in / on is kinda mandatory in Chinese.
    You may believe that, but it is not mandatory in Chinese. 院子的两边是... is a variant of 在院子的两边是... (which you can find on the Internet if you insert it in Google in inverted commas). In other words, a 在 has been omitted. This is perfectly acceptable in Chinese.

    At the two sides there are east and west side rooms.
     
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    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    You may believe that, but it is not mandatory in Chinese. 院子的两边是... is a variant of 在院子的两边是... (which you can find on the Internet if you insert it in Google in inverted commas). In other words, a 在 has been omitted. This is perfectly acceptable in Chinese.

    At the two sides there are east and west side rooms.

    Exactly, that is the point. I mean, if someone wants to say this:

    The two sides of the courtyard are east and west wing rooms.

    院子的两边是东西厢房

    Why to suppose that an 在 is omitted?
     

    azhong

    Senior Member
    Traditional Chinese
    @ primi: Those sentences you've quoted are indeed commonly heard in oral Chinese and has nothing unnatural. But if you think they, with a 在, are better expressions compared to those without, I doubt. In my personal opinion, they're English-influenced Chinese.

    Back to Konstantinos's question, where I thought he was asking about if those prepositional words shouldn't be omitted. My answer is, "they can be omitted as well as kept". Yes, pimlico is correct; it's not mandatory to omit these prepositional words .

    And then to your reply, pimlico, where, seemingly to me but i might be wrong, you were telling "these prepositional words" shouldn't be left out. And my opinion to you, an advanced learner, is, "you might want to learn how to omit them properly (by reading more literate works), so as to meet an aesthetical viewpoint of conciseness, which I think is the same in whichever language."
     
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    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    @ primi: Those sentences you've quoted are indeed commonly heard in oral Chinese and has nothing unnatural. But if you think they, with a 在, are better expressions compared to those without, I doubt. In my personal opinion, they're English-influenced Chinese.
    We are speaking at cross-purposes. I argued that the 在 can be dropped - the opposite to what you are claiming I said. And if you agree phrases are quoted are "commonly heard in oral Chinese and not unnatural in any way", then you have no basis for objecting. But in fact, I selected the sentences to show that 在 can be dropped, and so you have misunderstood my post entirely.
    And then to your reply, pimlico, where, seemingly to me but i might be wrong, you were telling "these prepositional words" shouldn't be left out.
    Seemingly to you but you might be wrong? You then go on to say I said the opposite to what I said?
    And my opinion to you, an advanced learner, is, "you might want to learn how to omit them properly (by reading more literate works), so as to meet an aesthetical viewpoint of conciseness, which I think is the same in whichever language."
    I have already learnt how to omit them - 20-30 years ago, in fact. But no one in the thread has been able to say when you would say 在家里, 在家 and 家里. As you say, conciseness (avoiding a non-clunky style) is key here - but you can no more formulate a rule for this than I can. I won't visit the Chinese forum here again.
     

    azhong

    Senior Member
    Traditional Chinese
    But in fact, I selected the sentences to show that 在 can be dropped, and so you have misunderstood my post entirely.
    Okay then, I might have misunderstood your post.

    My posts would never to for or against anyone's post. I was just sharing what I've known, to provide my help. And in this case I was just borrow those sentences from your post to show alternative expressions. In the sentence pattern 在…裏(里), my point is, not only 在 but also 裏 can be dropped sometimes, if not always. That is what I wanted to tell Kons. I had no bit of intention to say "pimlico was wrong" or "don't trust pimlico's Chinese", etc. On the opposite, I can read from your post that your Chinese is good. And I'm very glad you're here with us to help people together. You have an advantage that I'll never compete when helping people: Your English is far better than mine.

    And, it's even possible you'll find one day my knowledge about Chinese is wrong. But I'm glad I'm not this time.

    So, back to Kons' question, the agreed answer is, again, those prepositional words can be dropped in Chinese.
     
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