飲む飲まないに関わりなく

graysesame

Senior Member
Taiwanese Mandarin
I saw the sentence
お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく参加者には一人3000円払っていただきます
and started to think the interchangeability between "動詞+か+動詞+か+打消しの言葉" and "動詞+動詞+打消しの言葉" because the sentence I saw could be written with "飲むか飲まないかに関わりなく."

飲む飲まないに関わりなく(〇)
飲むか飲まないかに関わりなく(〇)

投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ(〇)
投票をするかしないか、それは各自の自由だ(〇)

学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています(〇)
学園祭に行く行かない迷っています I think it sounds faulty

Could you share more examples where the two patterns are not interchangeable and, if possible, the theory you come up with?
 
  • SoLaTiDoberman

    Senior Member
    Japanese
    学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています:tick:
    学園祭に行く行かない迷っています :cross:
    学園祭に行く行かない迷っています:tick:
    学園祭に行く行かない、それを(orそれで)迷っています:tick: = 投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ :tick:
    投票をするしない各自の自由だ :cross:
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    I think this is a complement/adjunct distinction.

    学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています
    'I wonder whether I should go to the school festival.' (Complement of the verb) ⇒ In this case the first か can't be ommitted

    お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく
    'Regardless of whether you drink or not' (Adjunct)
     

    graysesame

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています
    'I wonder whether I should go to the school festival.' (Complement of the verb)
    Do you mean "complement of 迷う"?

    I found a sentence:
    特に人間関係がどの程度のものなのかは、助言するしないを決めるのにとても大切なように思えました。
    Does 学園祭に行く行かないを迷っています, resembling the sentence structure, sound natural?
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    Do you mean "complement of 迷う"?
    Yes.
    I found a sentence:
    特に人間関係がどの程度のものなのかは、助言するしないを決めるのにとても大切なように思えました。
    That's a different construction because the complement of 決める is a を-marked noun phrase.
    Does 学園祭に行く行かないを迷っています, resembling the sentence structure, sound natural?
    No.
     

    graysesame

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    Is not the complement of 迷う also an を-marked noun phrase? (surface form: 行くか行かないか迷う underlying form: 行くか行かないかを迷う)
     

    graysesame

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    Just for clarification. I am not familiar with syntactic terms.
    迷う takes a clausal complement
    Is "道に"迷う or "道を"迷うa nominal complement? If not, the proper clarification for them is?


    Does ...助言するしないを決めるのに... obey
    complement/adjunct rule?

    (The purpose of this question is to find when the two patterns are interchangeable.)
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    In neutral terms, the verbs 迷う and 決める differ in whether they can have a noun phrase in their object positions.
    The first can only have a clause in its object position, while the second can have either a noun phrase or a clause.

    :tick: するかしないか迷う
    :cross: するかしないかを迷う

    :tick: するかしないか決める
    :tick: するかしないかを決める

    Thus, the following is impossible because 迷う doesn't take a noun phrase in its object position:
    :cross:
    "道を"迷う
    On the other hand, 道に in
    :tick:
    "道に"迷う
    is not something that is required by the verb 迷う (and thus is not a complement but an adjunct) because it's an adverbial, without which the sentence just makes sense. (Notice that 迷った is impeccable although it has no other words in the sentence.)

    The pattern you’re concerned with here is the を-less one: that is, verbs that take a clause in their object positions.
    学園祭に行くか行かないか迷っています(〇)
    学園祭に行く行かない迷っています I think it sounds faulty
    The first and the second in the quoted are good and bad, respectively.
    Thus the か-less pattern is impossible when the か...ないか clause is required to be there by the main verb (=when it's the complement of the verb).
    On the other hand, when the か...ないか clause is not required by the main verb (=when it's an adjunct), both the "か-ful" and か-less patterns are allowed:

    :tick: 投票 (を) するしない、それは各自の自由だ (Whether one votes or not, it's up to the person)
    :tick: 投票をするかしないか、それは各自の自由だ
    :tick: それは各自の自由だ

    Speaking of the を-marked pattern, both the "か-ful" and か-less patterns are allowed, as long as the main verb can have a noun phrase in its object position:

    :tick: 助言するしないを決める
    :tick: 助言するかしないかを決める

    :cross: 助言するしないを迷う
    :cross: 助言するかしないかを迷う
     

    graysesame

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    In neutral terms, the verbs 迷う and 決める differ in whether they can have a noun phrase in their object positions.
    The first can only have a clause in its object position, while the second can have either a noun phrase or a clause.

    :tick: するかしないか迷う
    :cross: するかしないかを迷う

    :tick: するかしないか決める
    :tick: するかしないかを決める

    :tick: するかしないか決める (underlined part is a か-marked clausal complement)
    :tick: するかしないかを決める (underlined part is a を-marked nominal complement)
    Do I understand it correctly?
     

    graysesame

    Senior Member
    Taiwanese Mandarin
    (For word usage)
    I found 6365 hits and 1342 hits for を迷う and に迷う, respectively, in TWC (Tsukuba Web Corpus). I know it is advisable to use に with 迷う but SoLaTiDoberman san wrote down それを迷っています and the 1342 hits so it seems that を迷う is sometimes used. 道に迷う is much more frequently used than 道を迷う, though.

    (For complement/adjunct distinction)
    お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく
    'Regardless of whether you drink or not' (Adjunct)
    I suppose you mean お酒を飲む飲まないに is an adjunct in お酒を飲む飲まないに関わりなく.
    If I understand it correctly, a complement and an adjunct can be distinguished from whether it is adjacent to the head and is inside the verb phrase. An easy method is to check whether the part examined is required by the main verb.
    Observing kanadaaa san's posts, I found that に-marked phrases are categorized into adjuncts and を-marked phrases are categorized into complements, However, I doubt if that is always the case. しこりを触れる and しこりに触れる have almost the same meaning and exactly the same structure. And (I feel that) the word 関わる needs "somethingに" to complete the meaning.

    (For the main question of the thread)
    投票をするしない、それは各自の自由だ (adjunct) is natural.
    参加するかしないかを決める (を-marked nominal complement) is natural.
    参加するしないを決める (を-marked nominal complement) is natural.
    助言するしない決める (lack of を to form を-marked nominal complement) is unnatural.
    参加するしない迷う (lack of か to form か-marked clausal complement) is unnatural.
    Is the summarization correct?

    (A side note)
    There are 7 hits for "+迷う(語彙素)", 5 hits for "+迷う(語彙素)", 741 hits for "+迷う(語彙素)" in BCCWJ.
    Examples
    目的地が決まらないのに、飛行機で行くか、電車で行く か (を)(迷っ)ているようなもの。
    こまった警察はどうすべき か (に)(まよっ)た。
    着替えた方がいいかどう か (迷っ)たが, ...

    (Acknowledgement)
    I know it takes time and effort to provide answers and examples. We questioners cannot thank all the kind-hearted answerers enough!
     

    kanadaaa

    Senior Member
    Japanese (Tokai)
    Is the summarization correct?
    It's exactly to the point.

    I think 迷う has lexical ambiguity between intransitive and transitive.
    迷う in 道に迷う is obviously intransitive, while the one in 応募を迷う is transitive.
    When the verb is preceded by a clause, it's always intransitive because transitive verbs don't take a clausal complement.
     
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