우겨 열자 좁은

*Louis*

Senior Member
Italian
Hi guys!

I have stumbled across this sentence. I understand that it's about a worn-out toothbrush but there are a few constructions and words that I am not catching up.

찌그러져 잘 열리지 않는 뚜껑을 우겨 열자 좁은 통 안에 눌려 담겨있던 누렇게 색이 바랜 칫솔모들이 펑, 하고 꽃피듯 펼쳐졌다.

What's 눌려 담겨있던? Is it one verb?
Is 하고 the indirect speech or does it mean "and?"

Could you please help me translate the sentence so that I can understand it better?

Thanks!!!

Louis
 
  • CharlesLee

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Ciao amico,

    What's 눌려 담겨있던? Is it one verb?

    - 눌려 담겨있던 describes state of the brush heads, which means the brush heads were squashed.

    담겨있다 is a verb form. 담겨있던 is describing the state of the brush heads were like 'kept in the tin'.

    Is 하고 the indirect speech or does it mean "and?"

    - It's a direct speech partially in '펑'. The Koreans often tend to express onomatopoeia even in the indirect speech.

    When persistently opened a lid dented that doesn't open easily, Golden yellow faded brush heads that were squashed in a narrow tin

    unfolded with a pop like blooming flowers.

    This is what I interpreted from Korean to English as indirect speech.

    펑 is onomatopoeia in Korean, and that's "funk".

    Notice : Like native English speakers, Koreans use onomatopoeia as verbs as in bang.

    When persistently opened a lid dented that doesn't open easily, Golden yellow faded brush heads that were squashed in a narrow tin

    and then "Funk or Boom" unfolded like blooming flowers.

    The brush heads were arranged like leaves of flower or a shape of flower after opening the tin's cover.

    Funk(Punk) is the sound of when opening the tin's lid in force and the writer imagined as if a bud turned into bloomed flower after

    the open.

    How you will translate is dependent on your writing or poetic skills.

    Good luck,
     
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    pcy0308

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Hello *Louis*,
    As you may know "펑" [P'ŏng] or "Peong" is a commonly used onomatopoeia for describing an explosion (be it small or big) or a sudden pop as is the case here. "-하다" can be understood as "to make ~ sound" and in fact is often used in conjunction with different onomatopoeic expressions: 꽝 하다, 쿵 하다, 펑 하다, 엉엉 하다. It is easier to understand the whole as a verb in itself: for instance, "쿵 했다" (to thud).

    "눌려 담겨있다" or "눌러져 담겨있다" does have two verbs combined: 눌러지다 (to be squeezed) and 담겨지다 (to be put into something). You may come across this kind of compound verbs quite frequently: for example, 잘려 담겨있다, 씻어 담겨있다, 당겨 벌려지다, etc. In any case, "눌려 담겨있다" could be understood as "to be crammed into/jammed into/squeezed into".

    When persistently opened a lid dented that doesn't open easily, Golden yellow faded brush heads that were squashed in a narrow tin unfolded with a pop like blooming flowers.
    Just a few pointers here and there for a better translation: the sentence sounds more natural if translated as follows:
    "when (I/he/she/whoever in question) forced open the lid dented and stuck tight, yellow faded toothbrush heads that were squeezed/jammed/squashed into it popped unfolded like a blooming flower/popping flower pod."

    The use of the adverb "persistently" is unnatural here. "Persistently" is not the ideal choice for describing actions, such as opening or closing as "persistently open(ed)" is more often than not used to describe something that is open all the time or for a long period of time. "우겨 열다/억지로 열다" is better translated as "to force open". "Persistently opened a lid...that doesn't open easily" just sound redundant so it is just better to opt for "stuck tight", "closed tight", "sealed tight", etc. (Also, taking into account how toothbrush heads are "누렇게" discolored and I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way :), it'd be better to just say "yellow", "brown", "brownish yellow" or even "shades of yellow", just like how you'd describe discolored teeth or 누런 이빨.)

    Hope this helps.
     
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    CharlesLee

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Hello *Louis*,
    As you may know "펑" [P'ŏng] or "Peong" is a commonly used onomatopoeia for describing an explosion (be it small or big) or a sudden pop as is the case here. "-하다" can be understood as "to make ~ sound" and in fact is often used in conjunction with different onomatopoeic expressions: 꽝 하다, 쿵 하다, 펑 하다, 엉엉 하다. It is easier to understand the whole as a verb in itself: for instance, "쿵 했다" (to thud).

    "눌려 담겨있다" or "눌러져 담겨있다" does have two verbs combined: 눌러지다 (to be squeezed) and 담겨지다 (to be put into something). You may come across this kind of compound verbs quite frequently: for example, 잘려 담겨있다, 씻어 담겨있다, 당겨 벌려지다, etc. In any case, "눌려 담겨있다" could be understood as "to be crammed into/jammed into/squeezed into".


    Just a few pointers here and there for a better translation: the sentence sounds more natural if translated as follows:
    "when (I/he/she/whoever in question) forced open the lid dented and stuck tight, yellow faded toothbrush heads that were squeezed/jammed/squashed into it popped unfolded like a blooming flower/popping flower pod."

    The use of the adverb "persistently" is unnatural here. "Persistently" is not the ideal choice for describing actions, such as opening or closing as "persistently open(ed)" is more often than not used to describe something that is open all the time or for a long period of time. "우겨 열다/억지로 열다" is better translated as "to force open". "Persistently opened a lid...that doesn't open easily" just sound redundant so it is just better to opt for "stuck tight", "closed tight", "sealed tight", etc. (Also, taking into account how toothbrush heads are "누렇게" discolored and I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way :), it'd be better to just say "yellow", "brown", "brownish yellow" or even "shades of yellow", just like how you'd describe discolored teeth or 누런 이빨.)

    Hope this helps.
    Hello,

    I agree on 'persistently' because it was my choice after thinking of the adverb there. However, you don't need skip the detail

    like a narrow tin that describes more how wide is the actual tin for readers and the figure. I don't feel like 누런 means bad ways.

    It sounds like you have one sided idea that modern people feels rather than 'the true Royal ways'.

    The wrong idea will result in the untold truth and forgotten history for the next generation.

    I cannot explain it here because it's a secret and if I speak the truth,

    that means we throw out the British and Americans soldiers' sacrifices as well as other nations'.

    However, it's really helpful to hear your English explanations in English for the people.
     

    pcy0308

    Senior Member
    Korean
    The wrong idea will result in the untold truth and forgotten history for the next generation.
    If I speak the truth that means we throw out the British and Americans soldiers' sacrifices as well as other nations'
    The sentences are poorly worded. I guess what you are trying to say is that "the misconception may lead to truth and history being untold and forgotten respectively". Also, as for the "to throw out the British and Americans soldiers' sacrifices" part, the verb "throw out" is not employed this way, as it commonly means something entirely different. What you meant to say probably is "to let...soldiers' sacrifices be in vain".

    However, you don't need skip the detail, like a narrow tin that describes more how wide is the actual tin for readers and the figure.
    Just a friendly pointer, "However, you don't need to skip the detail, like the narrow tin that describes in detail/more precisely/ how wide is the actual tin is for the readers and the figure."

    I don't feel like 누런 means bad ways.
    There was no specific mention of "누런" having an inherently bad/negative connotation. In this case, however, the OP has also mentioned that the toothbrush is "worn out" and, I assume, is probably discolored. I do not have any problem with you using "golden yellow" but I am simply saying it is not the ideal word for describing "a worn out, discolored toothbrush".
     

    CharlesLee

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Hello,

    "I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way." This idea is completely wrong.

    Gold colour was one of our colours related to our royal and noble family.

    It's luxurious colour and that means our traditional mourning clothes and the supreme emperor's.

    Thus, discoloured means it's been aged. Your idea sounds like no respect for elder people.

    If you look at golden wall in Rothchild's house, do you feel visually unpleasant way???

    Why is that? because you don't have gold?

    However the history went in the past, the colour yellow, isn't unpleasant one nor wasn't.

    Because our ancestors told English, Americans in the middle age, "white white white" many times,

    that doesn't mean "white" is our only historical colour.

    누렇다 means 黃, and it's yellow in English. Even British and Americans are smarter than you, I gather.
     
    Last edited:

    CharlesLee

    Senior Member
    Korean
    The sentences are poorly worded. I guess what you are trying to say is that "the misconception may lead to truth and history being untold and forgotten respectively". Also, as for the "to throw out the British and Americans soldiers' sacrifices" part, the verb "throw out" is not employed this way, as it commonly means something entirely different. What you meant to say probably is "to let...soldiers' sacrifices be in vain".


    Just a friendly pointer, "However, you don't need to skip the detail, like the narrow tin that describes in detail/more precisely/ how wide is the actual tin is for the readers and the figure."


    There was no specific mention of "누런" having an inherently bad/negative connotation. In this case, however, the OP has also mentioned that the toothbrush is "worn out" and, I assume, is probably discolored. I do not have any problem with you using "golden yellow" but I am simply saying it is not the ideal word for describing "a worn out, discolored toothbrush".
    "the misconception may lead to truth and history being untold and forgotten for the next generation". Not respectively.

    What disturbs me is the line that "I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way."

    because the writer expressed poetry, NOT really in a visually unpleasant way here.


    Are you really Korean??? Strange. Your explanation doesn't match with what the sentence says.

    Are flowers unpleasant?
     
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    pcy0308

    Senior Member
    Korean
    Gold colour was one of our colours related to our royal and noble family.
    It's luxurious colour and that means our traditional mourning clothes and the supreme emperor's.
    Thus, discoloured means it's been aged. Your idea sounds like no respect for elder people.
    Are you really bridging a connection between a discolored toothbrush to the Korean dynasties/royalty?

    No harm intended, but putting words in other's mouth just to get your point across shows how clueless you are: how you've managed to conveniently conclude disagreeing with "discolored golden yellow toothbrush" translates to "[an] idea [that] sounds like no respect for elder people" is beyond myself and, quite honestly, laughable. Thank you for the good few minutes of laughs, but no, that is not even remotely close to what I am saying.

    Just because I believe a discolored toothbrush can be described better with colors other than a shade of gold does not mean I am denying how it can be used to describe other "royal", luxurious, splendid things. How illogically you've manage to connect the dots ("denying how the 'golden yellow' is suitable for describing a discolored toothbrush" = "denying the color gold is 'royal, luxurious'" = "how one's idea shows no respect for elder people") is quite ludicrous. I don't mean to poke fun at this but literally, your logic is borderline entertaining.

    The color "gold" can be used to describe not just 오조원룡보 or 옥대 on 곤룡포 but also countless other things among which are some unpleasant, disgusting things. Just because I believe the color yellow is a better alternative to "golden yellow" for a discolored toothbrush it does not mean I am completely negating how the color gold can be used to describe something luxurious, majestic and royal. It is a shame I have to explain this to you word by word as if I were breaking things down to a child.

    Also,
    Are flowers unpleasant?
    here, "popping/blooming like a flower" is an ideophonic clause describing HOW the toothbrush head pops, NOT HOW the toothbrush is discolored. One deals with the color of it, the other its momentary physical movement. And how those two are described does not have to be in accordance with each other either for the sake of providing an ironic - even somewhat paradoxical - depiction of the toothbrush or for whatever other purposes.

    Are you really Korean??? Strange. Your explanation doesn't match with what the sentence says.
    Just a pointer: Your explanation doesn't match with what the sentence says.

    Before talking about "respect" for elders, youths, the Korean royalty, or whatever it is in question, you yourself should behave in a more respectful, considerate manner: an individual being Korean or not does not have anything to do with him/her being able to comment, disagree or express one's idea on what is and is not an accurate translation. It would be equivalent of me pointing out your English proficiency by saying, "given your poor English, I doubt you will be able to understand what I am saying, and seeing how poorly constructed your English sentences are it'd be safe to assume your translation is just as unnatural as your explanations."

    No, it is not my explanation that is not in line with what the sentence is saying; rather, it is your inability to understand my explanation and acknowledge how others can translate things differently and interpret it differently. No offense. :) Agree to disagree.

    What disturbs me is the line that "I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way."
    because the writer expressed poetry, NOT really in a visually unpleasant way here.
    Just a few pointers:
    "What disturbs me is the line that says 'I am assuming, by all means, not in a visually pleasant way.'"
    "because the writer expressed poetically, NOT really in a visually unpleasant way here."

    (expressing it poetically and describing something in a visually unpleasant way are not mutually exclusive. That is your assumption; do not commit the error of assuming what you hold true simply translates to how things should be and are understood.)

    Even British and Americans are smarter than you, I gather.
    What? I don't even know where to begin with this one. If this is a testament to anything, it just goes to show how intellectually challenged you are and how you are unable to disagree healthily with others without questioning their intellectual level all the while being completely oblivious to your own lack of grasp of things, let alone, at best, poor linguistic proficiency. Hold your horses and relax: "saying how the color golden yellow is not ideal for describing a discolored toothbrush does not automatically means I am disrespecting the Korean royalty. Be it yellow or golden yellow, both are usable and valid terms; just expressing one's opinion what I believe is a better. Agree to disagree. Nobody is disrespecting the Korean royalty; nobody is disrespecting the elders; nobody is saying that "the color gold" should only be used for describing "the royal ones" or "visually unpleasant things", or that refusing to describe it that way is understood as a mockery.

    Hope this helps.
     
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