# 3000-fold of the minimum wage

#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
Hello! I am now revising an Armenian to English translation, and there is a phrase there similar to the following one:

A penalty may be imposed in the amount of 3000-fold of the minimum wage.
My question is, does this 'in the amount of X-fold of something' expression sound natural to you (native speakers)? Because it sounds a bit weird to me. I would prefer saying 'A penalty equal to 3000 times the minimum wage may be imposed.' But I don't want to make unnecessary changes in the text... So, I'd appreciate your opinion, thank you!

• #### entangledbank

##### Senior Member
No, that's definitely not English. Get rid of 'fold' altogether. 'To the amount of 3000 times the minimum wage' is the least change that would work. (I don't like 'in the amount' either.)

#### johngiovanni

##### Senior Member
"In the amount of" is part of the vernacular of the world of finance, as is "to the amount of" and "for the amount of".
Expressions using "fold", such as "a one thousand fold increase" (sometimes hyphenated, but not consistently) are English and make sense. Whether you choose to use the "fold" expressions or the "times" expressions is a matter more of style than anything else.

#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
Thank you, entangledbank.

johngiovanni,

So basically, do you think the entire expression 'in the amount of 3000-fold of the minimum wage' is okay?

#### johngiovanni

##### Senior Member
It is OK, but I would use entangledbank's suggestion in post 2.

#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
okay, thank you!

#### Kirill V.

##### Senior Member
I wonder whether in the amount and to the amount can have different meanings here? (Just to be on the safe side with these legal things)

In the amount = exactly 3000 times minimum wage
to the amount = up to 3000 times minimum wage

I may be wrong, just wanted to warn just in case

#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
Good question, I was wondering the same, that's why I prefer equal to, because the original text is 100% unambiguous.

#### dojibear

##### Senior Member
Thank you, entangledbank.

So basically, do you think the entire expression 'in the amount of 3000-fold of the minimum wage' is okay?
One problem. None of us know the amount of money this represents. Minimum wage is not an amount of money, it is a rate of pay.

One hour's worth of minimum wage (in CA) is \$15.00
The minimum wage for one standard 8-hour day is \$120.00 (actually less: taxes must be withheld).
For a 40-hour week (many people work less) minimum wage is \$600, minus taxes. For a month, bout 2500. For a year, about 30,000.

So your penalty is 3,000 times "the minimum pay for a certain number of hours/days/weeks/months". How long?

#### PaulQ

##### Banned
Minimum wage is not an amount of money,
In the UK, and most of Europe, the minimum wage is understood as "per hour" is define in law and is a fixed sum.

#### PaulQ

##### Banned
A penalty may be imposed in the amount of 3000-fold of the minimum wage.
A penalty of 3000 times the minimum wage may be imposed.

#### e2efour

##### Senior Member
"X-fold of" is just a nonsense expression.
What evidence is there that you could say She earns twofold of his salary when you mean twice his salary or double his salary?

As for in the amount of, it is a standard expression, as pointed out in #3.

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#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
dojibear,

That's irrelevant, because the phrase is out of its context: it concerns only the Armenian law where for the purpose of calculating penalties 'the minimum wage' is regarded as a defined, fixed amount.

Thank you all for your opinions!

#### dojibear

##### Senior Member
That's irrelevant, because the phrase is out of its context: it concerns only the Armenian law where for the purpose of calculating penalties 'the minimum wage' is regarded as a defined, fixed amount.
Yes, it is irrelevant, if you use the Armenian word for it. But it is relevant if you are trying to translate it into English.

In English we use "minimum hourly wage" and "hourly minimum wage" for the defined, fixed amount you are talking about.

In casual conversation this is sometimes shortened to "minimum wage", but it shouldn't be shortened in a document.

#### ewie

##### Senior Member
I completely agree with you, Doji: I wouldn't have a clue what 3,000 times the minimum wage (on its own) meant ~ it's like saying You need a piece of rope 13 units long (on its own)

#### e2efour

##### Senior Member
I have no difficulty in understand "X times the minimum wage".
It is a standard expression, as has been pointed out by PaulQ, and in the UK is an hourly rate.

But let's see what the White House website says about it:
"At the federal level, the Obama Administration has expressed support for the Raise the Wage Act proposed by Senator Murray and Representative Scott, which would increase the minimum wage to \$12 by 2020".

I do not see the word per hour here.

#### PaulQ

##### Banned
I wouldn't have a clue what 3,000 times the minimum wage (on its own) meant
Oh.. that quite surprising. The National Minimum wage in Armenia is 55,000 AMD p.a. (2015 figure). Armenia Minimum Wages | 2012-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast.

But happily, it is not necessary for anyone to know this unless they are likely to be in breach of the Armenian law that the fine relates to, and then they should make the effort.

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#### AniwaR

##### Senior Member
No, it is still irrelevant, because my task is to translate a given text, not to do a lawyer's job for him/her. So, if an English lawyer (or whoever) wants to know how much exactly 3000 times the minimum wage is, he/she would have to find out what they mean by saying "minimum wage" IN ARMENIA. And just in case anyone's interested, there's an act of the Armenian Parliament which defines that for the purpose of calculating fines and penalties the minimum wage must be read as "1,000 AMD". So, yes, here it is basically just a conventional unit and has nothing to do with the actual money people receive for their job.

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