A és B van/vannak, A és B nagy/nagyok

[ausermilar]

Hello,

I've been reading a touristic guide about the Iberian Peninsula (published in Bp) and, when the author talks about both countries uses expressions sometimes in singular sometimes in plural, as :

Spanyolország és Portugália az Ibériai-félszigeten vannak ...(why not "van"?)


Portugália és Spanyolország első pillantásra hasonló... (why no "hasonlóak"?).


Where is the trick?

Thanks

 

[Zsanna]

Hello ausermilar,

It is not an easy subject because the use of the singular and plural in this case may depend on various factors. I'll try to give you some.

When there are two subjects in the sentence that are proper names, the predicate can be either in the singural or plural, depending on whether you think of them as "one" or each, separately. (So it depends on the context and the speaker's point of view.)

E.g. Peti és Éva szépen hegedűl (Both can play the violin well. Could be a "general truth".) - as well as -
Peti és Éva szépen hegedűlnek (Same meaning but e.g. especially at the moment or talking to their relatives, giving one's opinion about their performance, etc.).

So, both of your sentences sound OK to me.
In the first, the authour thinks of Portugal and Spain really as two countries, in the second, he groups them into one "entity" because "they are the same" from the point of view that comes after the three dots.
(So, logically, when their differences are mentioned, the plural would be used. E.g. ..., de különbözőek abban, hogy.... = but differing in...)

 

[ausermilar]

Uff, sometimes almost the 50% of the Hungarian rules are not so different from ours! 😂

In Portuguese we use a plural verb, but also a singular, when we consider "the entity" of both subjects together, and also, only with proper nouns (Na escola José e Maria são um problema / é un problema - "At school Joseph and Mary are a problem /is a problem").

(but the other 50% of the explanation, only magyar áru! ).

Thanks.

 

[francisgranada]

Agreeing with Zsanna, I'd like to add that in Hungarian the "singular" form is often rather "indifferent".

That is, when it is not necessary to accentuate the plurality, the Hungarian tends to use the singular (unmarked) form. Thus the "singular" in Hungarian is often used also in cases when in Portuguese, English, Spanish, Slavic languages, etc... the plural should be used.

(Probably these are those 50% that you call "only magyar áru!" ).

An example for illustration: "Máriának kék szeme van" (singular) = in Portuguese "Maria tem olhos azuis" (plural).

 

[arlett]

When there are two subjects in the sentence that are proper names, the predicate can be either in the singural or plural, depending on whether you think of them as "one" or each, separately. (So it depends on the context and the speaker's point of view.)

I disagree, but only somewhat. I think it's kind of "acceptable" to use the singular with all nouns, not just proper names.
For example:

A tulipán és a rózsa piros.
A tulipán és a rózsa kinyílt a kertben.

They don't sound very elegant or educated in the singular, but one does hear such sentences, at least in speech.
By inserting the particle "is", they would sound idiomatic (to me at least).
"a tulipán és a rózsa is piros... is kinyílt..."

 

[Zsanna]

I disagree, but only somewhat. I think it's kind of "acceptable" to use the singular with all nouns, not just proper names.

It is not just "kind of acceptable", it is a rule (if the two or more subjects are in the singular).
But you are perfectly right saying that not just in the case of proper names.
In fact, I didn't remember well, it is especially in the case of the proper names that there are two possibilities, depending on the case. (There are 5 pages about all these in my Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv, so, sorry, there is no way to sum it all up here.)

A tulipán és a rózsa piros.
A tulipán és a rózsa kinyílt a kertben.

They don't sound very elegant or educated in the singular, but one does hear such sentences, at least in speech.

I don't see any problem with your sentences.* For me, both singular and the plural predicates are possible here but the difference is not in their "elegance"/"educated" use but mainly the speaker's aspect.

*Maybe, just a little bit in the case of the first sentence, in the sense that if this statement was meant to be a general truth, it is not true. These flowers exist in so many different colours, not just in red. (But the sentence could appear in a case when the speaker thinks of particular tulips and roses, in a particular place and then the sentence would be right as it is.)

P.S. I (as well as others in my generation and those in older generations) noticed (years ago) that the plural is used (erroneously, instead of the singular) more frequently in general and it is possible that this tendance will override eventually the traditional grammar and this is why you may have the impression that you describe.

 

[francisgranada]

P.S. I (as well as others in my generation and those in older generations) noticed (years ago) that the plural is used (erroneously, instead of the singular) more frequently in general and it is possible that this tendance will override eventually the traditional grammar ...

This is interesting. Even I myself tend to say e.g. "Készek vagyunk" instead of "Kész vagyunk". I don't feel it grammatically erroneous, however I also notice the tendency that the plural nowadays is used frequently in cases where traditionally the singular should be used.

 

[Zsanna]

This is interesting. Even I myself tend to say e.g. "Készek vagyunk" instead of "Kész vagyunk". I don't feel it grammatically erroneous, however I also notice the tendency that the plural nowadays is used frequently in cases where traditionally the singular should be used.

Francis, I agree but I did not mean this sort of using the plural instead of the singular.
I can't give you an example immediately (as I feel it is "wrong", I can't even memorize the examples I can hear) but it seems to me that there was a thread already where the use of singular and plural was discussed quite a lot. (I'll join the link to the thread. Not a lot of examples about mistakes but at least some for their special use in Hungarian.)