A fact which the newly elected mayor, Mike Haggar plans to .... [word order?]

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hhtt

Senior Member
Turkish
"A fact which the newly elected mayor and former street fighter, Mike Haggar plans to change." The word order in this sentence seems to me somewhat strange.
Is it incorrect? I think it should be "A fact plans to change Mike Haggar, mayor and former street fighter, which is newly elected." or " A fact plans to change Mike
Haggar which is (a?) newly selected mayor and (a?) formar street fighter."
 
  • Florentia52

    Modwoman in the attic
    English - United States
    No, your rewordings would change the meaning, be grammatically incorrect, and not make sense.

    The sentence as written is correct. "The fact" is not the subject of the verb, but the object. Here's a rewording:

    "Newly elected mayor Mike Haggar, who formerly was a street fighter, plans to change the fact" (that would have been mentioned in the preceding sentence but is not included in your post).
     

    Florentia52

    Modwoman in the attic
    English - United States
    I would eliminate the comma after "fighter" instead.

    I spoke too hastily when saying the sentence was correct as written. I think that comma is wrong.
     
    hhtt,
    First of all, it's not a sentence.

    So let's make one. [OP*] "It's a fact that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city, a fact which the newly elected mayor, Mike Haggar, plans to change."

    No, it cannot be "a fact plans to change Mike Haggar" --that's turning things around.

    There is some flexibility as to word order. Yes, you can mention Mike Haggar first:

    "It's a fact that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city, a fact which Mike Haggar, the newly elected mayor, plans to change."

    You can change the order of the whole sentence: A fact which Mike Haggar, the newly elected mayor, plans to change is (the fact) that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city.




    [OP} "A fact which the newly elected mayor and former street fighter, Mike Haggar plans to change." The word order in this sentence seems to me somewhat strange.
    Is it incorrect? I think it should be "A fact plans to change Mike Haggar, mayor and former street fighter, which is newly elected." or " A fact plans to change Mike
    Haggar which is (a?) newly selected mayor and (a?) formar street fighter."
     
    Last edited:

    hhtt

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    hhtt,
    First of all, it's not a sentence.

    So let's make one. "It's a fact that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city, a fact which the newly elected mayor, Mike Haggar, plans to change."

    No, it cannot be "a fact plans to change Mike Haggar" --that's turning things around.

    There is some flexibility as to word order. Yes, you can mention Mike Haggar first:

    "It's a fact that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city, a fact which Mike Haggar, the newly elected mayor, plans to change."

    You can change the order of the whole sentence: A fact which Mike Haggar, the newly elected mayor, plans to change is (the fact) that there are no major grocery stores in the poor areas of the city.
    But your example and the original one I gave both seem to be a complete sentences because it has a verb and subject. Why do you think the original is not a sentence?
     
    I think hhtt means 'within two commas,' and the answer is Yes. If 'newly selected mayor' goes first, then 'Mike Haggar' is enclosed in commas (i.e. before and after) [as in the OP] OR if 'Mike Haggar' goes first, then 'newly selected mayor...' is enclosed, i.e., commas before and after.
     

    hhtt

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    I think hhtt means 'within two commas,' and the answer is Yes. If 'newly selected mayor' goes first, then 'Mike Haggar' is enclosed in commas (i.e. before and after) [as in the OP] OR if 'Mike Haggar' goes first, then 'newly selected mayor...' is enclosed, i.e., commas before and after.
    Yes, you are right I wanted mean within but I have written it wrong.
     

    sdgraham

    Senior Member
    USA English
    But your example and the original one I gave both seem to be a complete sentences because it has a verb and subject. Why do you think the original is not a sentence?
    "A fact which the newly elected mayor and former street fighter, Mike Haggar plans to change."
    There is no verb here ... only a relative clause. Proper punctuation would help show the problem.

    A fact, which the newly elected mayor and former street fighter, Mike Haggar, plans to change, ..... [where's the verb for "fact"]"
     
    I don't 'think' it's not a sentence, I know it's not. hhtt, just because a group of words has a subject and some verb form does not make it a sentence, e.g., "A man walking up the hill" or, "which he took."

    No, my rewrite [OP*] has a main verb; your original [OP] does not.

    But your example and the original one I gave both seem to be a complete sentences because it has a verb and subject. Why do you think the original is not a sentence?
     
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    hhtt

    Senior Member
    Turkish
    There is no verb here ... only a relative clause. Proper punctuation would help show the problem.

    A fact, which the newly elected mayor and former street fighter, Mike Haggar, plans to change, ..... [where's the verb for "fact"]"
    There already should not be a verb for fact, because it seems it is an object and the verbs stand for subjects and here the subject is Mike Haggar.
     

    Florentia52

    Modwoman in the attic
    English - United States
    Bennymix is correct that this is not a complete sentence. I should not have referred to it as a sentence in my earlier posts.

    Please provide the source of this quote.
     

    lapdwicks

    Senior Member
    Sinhala
    There already should not be a verb for fact, because it seems it is an object and the verbs stand for subjects and here the subject is Mike Haggar.
    NO.

    Fact is not the object here, but the subject. That subject (fact) has been describes by a relative clause "which he plans to change".
     

    Florentia52

    Modwoman in the attic
    English - United States
    Here is the complete sentence:

    "The game is set sometime during the 1990's in Metro City, a well known crime capital that has been ruled by violence and death for many years -- a fact which the newly-elected mayor and former Street Fighter plans to change."
     
    Thanks Flo!

    [OP complete]
    "The game is set sometime during the 1990's in Metro City, a well known crime capital that has been ruled by violence and death for many years ---- a fact which* the newly-elected mayor and former Street Fighter * plans to change."
    So if the question in post #1 is 'Where can you put "Mike Haggar"?' The answer is at either * place, but enclosed in commas in the later position. In the earlier position, the green phrase (the description) should be so enclosed.

    hhtt.
    There is no rule that says a name has to come before a description. Suppose we start with Mike Haggar, muscles bulging all over his body, entered the ring. Well, also possible, and just as good, Muscles bulging all over his body, Mike Haggar entered the ring.

    English is very flexible and ANY arrrangment of these three elements might be made to work: Entering the ring, muscles bulging all over his body, was Mike Haggar.

    The order chosen depends on what the speaker wishes to highlight, e.g., the entry and the muscles, in the last example.
     
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    Wordsmyth

    Senior Member
    Native language: English (BrE)
    NO.

    Fact is not the object here, but the subject. That subject (fact) has been describes by a relative clause "which he plans to change".
    Sorry, lapdwicks, but that's a 'no' to your 'NO'. Now that Florentia has found the full sentence (and grammatically it's a very complex one), you can see that the subject of the main clause is "The game".

    After that it gets complicated: in the adverbial phrase " in Metro City" you have the noun phrase "Metro City". Then you have another noun phrase in apposition, " a well known crime capital that has been ruled by violence and death for many years" (which contains the relative clause "that has been ruled by violence and death for many years"). Then there's another noun phrase, "a fact which the newly-elected mayor and former Street Fighter plans to change" (which contains the relative clause "which the newly-elected mayor and former Street Fighter plans to change").

    The "fact" refers back to Metro City's being "ruled by violence and death for many years". As you can see, there's no main verb of which "a fact" could be the subject, but the relative pronoun "which" (which postmodifies "a fact") is the object of the final relative clause: it's what the mayor plans to change.

    Well, I did say it was complicated!;)

    Ws:)
     
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