A house of a man

Whodunit

Senior Member
Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
Let's take three examples in English and I'd like to translate them into Arabic to demonstrate my suspicion:

A house of a man.
.بيت من بيوت آلرجل
baytun min buyuuti ar-rajuli.

A member of the Arab delegation.
.عضو من أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
3uDuun min 2a3Daa2i 'l-wafdi 'l-3arabiyy.

A mistake of the politic of the government of Iraq.
.خطأ من أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق
KhaTa2un min 2akhTaa2i siiyaasati 7ukuumati 'l-2iraaqi.

Is it really so that I have to use such verbose sentences? Can't I simplify it so that I don't have to use "min" there?

And don't forget to correct everything rigorously. :)
 
  • cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Whodunit said:
    A house of a man.
    .بيت من بيوت آلرجل
    baytun min buyuuti ar-rajuli.
    بيت الرجل baytu-l-rajuli
    A member of the Arab delegation.
    .عضو من أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
    3uDuun min 2a3Daa2i 'l-wafdi 'l-3arabiyy.
    عضو فى الوفد العربى
    3udwun fi-l-wafdi 'l-3arabiyyi


    A mistake of the politic of the government of Iraq.
    .خطأ من أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق
    KhaTa2un min 2akhTaa2i siiyaasati 7ukuumati 'l-3iraaqi.
    أحد أخطاء سياسة الحكومة العراقية/ حكومة العراق a7adu akhtaa2i siyaasati al-7ukumati-l-3iraqeyyati \ 7ukuumati 'l-3iraaqi
    These are just suggestions. You can find better.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Whodunit said:
    Let's take three examples in English and I'd like to translate them into Arabic to demonstrate my suspicion:

    A house of a man.
    .بيت من بيوت آلرجل
    baytun min buyuuti ar-rajuli.

    A member of the Arab delegation.
    .عضو من أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
    3uDwun min 2a3Daa2i 'l-wafdi 'l-3arabiyy.

    A mistake of the politic of the government of Iraq.
    .خطأ من أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق
    KhaTa2un min 2akhTaa2i siiyaasati 7ukuumati 'l-3iraaqi.

    Is it really so that I have to use such verbose sentences? Can't I simplify it so that I don't have to use "min" there?

    And don't forget to correct everything rigorously. :)
    Your sentences are good! :thumbsup:

    Of course that is not the only way to express the same meaning. Another possibility would be to use أحد:

    أحد بيوت الرجل
    أحد أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
    أحد أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق​

    In this sentences, أحد means "one," and the "of" is understood.
    A house of a man.
    .بيت من بيوت آلرجل
    baytun min buyuuti ar-rajuli.
    بيت الرجل baytu-l-rajuli
    I don't think that's quite right, because that would mean "the house of the man," right?
     

    Jana337

    Senior Member
    čeština
    elroy said:
    Of course that is not the only way to express the same meaning. Another possibility would be to use أحد:

    أحد بيوت الرجل
    أحد أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
    أحد أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق​
    And the word after أحد is in genitive, I assume. The transliteration is 2a7ad, right??

    Jana
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Yes, and yes - bearing in mind that أحد itself gets inflected (a7ada, a7adu, a7adi).
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Jana337 said:
    And the word after أحد is in genitive, I assume. The transliteration is 2a7ad, right??
    Yes it is. And the transliteration is 2a7adu.
    elroy said:
    I don't think that's quite right, because that would mean "the house of the man," right?
    You're right. but still, to say that a house of man has two indefinite nouns, if we take literaly it will be أحد بيوت أحد الرجال :)
    As for the use of أحد I did it with the third sentence, just to show the variation or the different possibilities of expressing these sentences in Arabic.
    Thank you.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    cherine said:
    You're right. but still, to say that a house of man has two indefinite nouns, if we take literaly it will be أحد بيوت أحد الرجال :)
    Well - I guess it depends on what you're trying to say. :)

    أحد الرجال implies that there is a group of men of which this man is a part. That is not necessarily the case; we could be talking about any old man. Here is what I suggest:

    أحد بيوت رجل ما

    or even

    بيت رجل ما

    What do you think?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    :) I like the second one very much. :thumbsup: It's very accurate. bravo !

    may i add another one : بيت أحد الرجال
    definitely this a7ad word is indispensable here :)
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    elroy said:
    Your sentences are good! :thumbsup:

    Of course that is not the only way to express the same meaning. Another possibility would be to use أحد:

    أحد بيوت الرجل
    أحد أعضاء آلوفد العربيّ
    أحد أخطاء سياسة حكومة آلعراق​

    In this sentences, أحد means "one," and the "of" is understood.
    Your suggestion are great. "One of" is exactly what I needed. Would the same be possible with waa7idu واحد or does it only work with 2a7adu أحد?

    Thanks for the corrections. :)
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Whodunit said:
    Would the same be possible with waa7idu واحد or does it only work with 2a7adu أحد?
    Actually there's a difference between waa7idu (one) and a7adu (one of) :)
    So if you'll use waa7idu, you'll need to change the sentence (to a slightly more complicated one) :
    واحد من بيوت الرجل waa7idun min buyuuti-r-rajuli
    واحد من أعضاء الوفد العربى waa7idun min a3daa2i-l-wafdi-l-3arabiyyi
    واحدة من أخطاء سياسة الحكومة العراقية waa7idatun min akhtaa2i siyaasati-l-7ukuumati-l-3iraqiyyati (here I put waa7idatun, for akhtaa2 is a feminine word)
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    elroy said:
    I don't think that's quite right, because that would mean "the house of the man," right?
    Correct. I wanted to express "A house of a man", maybe in these two contexts:

    Do you know that a house of a rich man usually looks like a mansion?

    One house of a rich man usually looks like a mansion, since he has more than just one home.

    In the first sentence I can't use "one of ...", but in the second sentence, it is possible. :)

    It would be really kind of you to translate both sentences. ;)
    cherine said:
    Actually there's a difference between waa7idu (one) and a7adu (one of) :)
    So if you'll use waa7idu, you'll need to change the sentence (to a slightly more complicated one) :
    واحد من بيوت الرجل
    واحد من أعضاء الوفد العربى
    واحدة من أخطاء سياسة الحكومة العراقية (here I put waa7idatun, for akhtaa2 is a feminine word)
    Okay, then the version with 2a7adu is easier, because I don't need min, which is the case in the other variants.

    Thank you very much for the explanation, but one question remains after all:

    Why can I use the genitive without min when I use 2a7adu and not when using waa7idatun?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Whodunit said:
    Do you know that a house of a rich man usually looks like a mansion?
    هل تعلم أن بيت الرجل الغنى/بيت الغنى يشبه عادة القصر؟
    One house of a rich man usually looks like a mansion, since he has more than just one home.
    إن أحد بيوت الغنى يشبه القصر، بما أن لديه بيوتًا عديدة
    ....إن واحدًا من بيوت الغنى يشبه القصر
    Whodunit said:
    Why can I use the genitive without min when I use 2a7adu and not when using waa7idatun?
    because 2a7adu for itself means waa7idun min. :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Do you know that a house of a rich man usually looks like a mansion?
    هل تعلم أن بيت الرجل الغنى/بيت الغنى يشبه عادة القصر؟
    You could also translate this without the article before "man":

    هل تعلم أن بيت رجل غنى يشبه عادة القصر؟

    However, if you just use "rich" as a "nominalized adjective" you need the article.

    هل تعلم أن بيت الغنى يشبه عادة القصر؟
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    elroy said:
    You could also translate this without the article before "man":

    هل تعلم أن بيت رجل غنى يشبه عادة القصر؟
    But that means "Do you know that the house of a rich man ...", so it's determined again. ;)
    However, if you just use "rich" as a "nominalized adjective" you need the article.

    هل تعلم أن بيت الغنى يشبه عادة القصر؟
    Same here: The translation would be "Do you know that the house of the rich (man) ...?", but I needed "Do you know that a house of a rich man ...?"

    Do you see my confusion? :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Whodunit said:
    But that means "Do you know that the house of a rich man ...", so it's determined again. ;)
    I think I've come to the bottom of the problem. When you say "a house of a rich mean," the first part is actually determined even though it has an "a" before it. It is determined by "of a rich mean." "A house of a rich man" and "the house of a rich man" actually mean the same thing. The can both be replaced by "a rich man's house."
    Same here: The translation would be "Do you know that the house of the rich (man) ...?", but I needed "Do you know that a house of a rich man ...?"
    The "the" here is a general one - remember, as in the Romance languages. Thus, the same logic applies.
    Jana337 said:
    I think "the house of a rich man" would be:
    بيت رجل غنى هذا
    That sentence is incorrect. Did you mean to say "this rich man's house"? That would be something like
    هذا البيت من بيوت الرجل الغني.
     

    Whodunit

    Senior Member
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    elroy said:
    I think I've come to the bottom of the problem. When you say "a house of a rich mean," the first part is actually determined even though it has an "a" before it. It is determined by "of a rich mean." "A house of a rich man" and "the house of a rich man" actually mean the same thing. The can both be replaced by "a rich man's house."
    Hm ok, you're right. So, if I want to emphasize "a house of a rich man" (consider my previous example), I would translate it as "one house of a rich man", which would be "إن أحد بيوت الغنى". Going a bit further, what would be "one house of the rich man"? I'd say/write إن أحد بيوت هذا هو الغنى, but that doesn't seem to be correct. :eek:
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Whodunit said:
    Hm ok, you're right. So, if I want to emphasize "a house of a rich man" (consider my previous example), I would translate it as "one house of a rich man", which would be "إن أحد بيوت رجل غنى ".
    What you have works too, provided الغني is understood to be general.

    Going a bit further, what would be "one house of the rich man"? I'd say/write إن أحد بيوت هذا هو الغنى, but that doesn't seem to be correct. :eek:
    Correction above.
     
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