Discussion in 'Türkçe (Turkish)' started by Setwale_Charm, Dec 18, 2006.
Does the word kırnak suggest particularly a female slave and the word - köle a male one?
How about the word banda, which I believe is originally from Arabic.
No, the word "kırnak" does not mean a female slave in turkish. It means, "charming" or "attractive". The word "köle" means slave as you mentioned.
But, it can be used for both males and females. Because; in turkish language, there is no male or female distinctions about the words.
Setwale Charm, may I ask where yo saw the word "kırnak"? Because, I have never heard about it. It means indeed, "attractive, charming girl" and also, a female slave of a Sultan (cariye) which was found in the palaces, once upon a time. (I checked the Turkish dictionary. ) In spite of "kırnak", "cariye" is used in books.
I guess because of this, you are confusing the words. In daily life, we don't use "kırnak" to mean "slave".
Also, Panjabigator; We don't have a word "banda". Does it mean "slave" in Arabic?
I just spotted that in my dictionary. I am learning Turkish from French-language materials mostly. So the entry gave kırnak as esclave [fém](subst) and köle as esclave mâle.
It is not a very detailed dictionary, it provides a lot of useful names and expressions but only a bare translation for each word with no explanation behind it.
P.S. I wonder if in this day and age it is possible for us too to acquire a couple of charming attractive Sultans as köleler
panjabigator, I have not found anything for "banda" in my dictionary.
Is this indeed the Arabic for "slave"?
Banda =slave, a title of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur the first Sikh king.
As zeban mentioned above, "köle" is used both for females and males. "Cariye" has a slight difference in meaning. I checked the dictionary, the translation for "cariye" is "concubine".
köle: slave (mainly male)
karavaş: slave (only female)
Kırnak, as said before, has nothing to do with slavery. Banda has never existed in Turkish by any means.
Is concubine not to be regarded as a slave then? I tend to think they were not all so free in their position.
Can you please define concubine? My dictionary gives several meanings and none of them can be called as slave.
banda is not right. It is bende and yes that means köle in Turkish. However most people may not know it but they use it in this idiom 'Bendeniz Mehmet' That means 'your slave Mehmet'. Of course name can change. This idiom is used when you introduce yourself to somebody and it is informal.
Afaik odalisque is an equivalent for concubine and it is from Turkish 'odalık'.
Right, well spotted spakh! Indeed, it is an archaic word that is totally out-of-use now (well, if you don't count "bendeniz"...) and which has been borrowed from Persian, not Arabic.
I would just like to confirm that "banda" does not mean "slave" in Arabic. The word for "slave" is `abd.
Does it really mean "slave" as such? I thought it had a slightly softer meaning of "servant" since many Islamic names include it combined with various epithets used to describe the Almighty.
It's meaning are broad, Setwale.
Yes, it can mean "servant," "worshiper," etc. but it is also the word that is normally used for "slave."
Context is our friend!
Abd is also a borrowing from Arabic that is not used anymore. (ABD, with capitalized letters, has nothing to do with that. It stands for Amerika Birleşik Devletleri-United States of America)
Thanks! I must of heard wrong then...I'll find out where it comes from then...perhaps Persian.
1- "kırnak" is a slave girl, a female slave, concubine, surviving to this day only in Western Turkish languages, i.e. Turkish (kırnak), Turkmen (gırnak). It existed in Kıpçak in the same form as in Turkish (kırnak), along with "kara:wa:ş", "ka:ra:ba:ş, and "tüge:" (note: "tüge:" is in this sense only (?) in Kıpçak, in others it means female calf younger than one-year-old; root of present-day Rep. Turkish "düve", same sense).
2- There is a word "bende" (the same "banda" mentioned in some postings here) in Turkish. It existed, as indicated by some postings, and used up until 40-50 yrs ago as a loanword from Persian, not from Arabic. Even today, though quite rarely, one can hear an old Istanbul efendisi (much less a case for an Istanbul hanımefendisi) saying "bendeniz" (=your slave) to his interlocutor, out of respect). I remember my father using the expression quite frequently up until the eighties.
3- "Abd" in Arabic is "kul" in Turkish, not "slave" (=köle), and is used only (?) in the context of being "Allah's slave". It is evident in names such as "Abd-ullah" (Abd-ul-Allah=Allah's slave), "Abd-ul-Kerim", Abd-ul-Mecid", Abd-ul-Hamid), Kerim, Mecid and Hamid being few of the attributed names to Allah.
Definitely a Persian word Forgive my ignorance from four years ago!
Separate names with a comma.