a/the son/car of who/whose

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loviii

Senior Member
Russian
Good day!

I know how to build the sentences with "whose son", but I'm very interested how to do it with "of who":
(1) That woman a son of who we saw lives next door.
(2) Marry a son of who we saw lives next door.

Are they both correct?
Will they be correct if I replace "a son of who" with "a car of who"?
Can I replace "a son of who" with "a son of whose"?
What is the difference between "a son of who" and if I replace it with "the son of who"?

Please let me know if I need to submit some of my questions into separate threads, because I myself can't understand the seriousness of these questions.

Thanks!
 
  • PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    I'm very interested how to do it with "of who":
    "Of who" is always wrong. As the object of a preposition, a pronoun is never in the subjective (nominative) grammatical case.

    However, I agree with boozer - your examples are very poor.
     

    loviii

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I see no bright future ahead of those sentences, frankly.
    "Of who" is always wrong.
    We can say:
    We saw a son of that woman.

    But we can't say:
    That woman a son of who we saw lives next door.
    That woman a son of whom we saw lives next door.
    That woman who we saw a son of lives next door.
    That woman whom we saw a son of lives next door.

    All these variants are incorrect. Did I understand you right?

    Thanks!
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    We can say:
    We saw a son of that woman.
    Yes, but it is a little awkward and we would usually say "We saw one of that woman's sons."
    But we can't say:
    That woman a son of who we saw lives next door. -> of who :cross:
    That woman a son of whom we saw lives next door. -> incorrect punctuation :cross:
    That woman who we saw a son of lives next door. -> colloquial and sub-standard :thumbsdown:
    That woman whom we saw a son of lives next door. -> correct but awkward, not idiomatic. :thumbsdown:
     

    loviii

    Senior Member
    Russian
    That woman a son of who we saw lives next door. -> of who :cross:
    That woman a son of whom we saw lives next door. -> incorrect punctuation :cross:
    That woman who we saw a son of lives next door. -> colloquial and sub-standard :thumbsdown:
    That woman whom we saw a son of lives next door. -> correct but awkward, not idiomatic. :thumbsdown:
    Maybe I've just overestimated the word "who"...

    Could you tell me how the situation will change if I replace "who" with "which", for example in the next two sentences:
    That woman a son of which we saw lives next door.
    Marry a car of which we saw lives next door.

    Thanks!
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    Maybe I've just overestimated the word "who"...
    I don't think so - you seem to have failed to grasp the distinction between who and whom, which is the same difference as between he and him, and they and them.

    That woman a son of which we saw lives next door. :cross: which is wrong - the woman is human, humans take the pronoun who/whom.
    Marry a car of which we saw lives next door. -> this is nonsense.
     

    loviii

    Senior Member
    Russian
    you seem to have failed to grasp the distinction between who and whom, which is the same difference as between he and him, and they and them.
    Your words are very surprising to me. Every man that begins learning English, first differentiates "who" and "whom" very well towards each other. But in some time that man reads everywhere that "whom" is old-fashioned and we should always use "who" instead. And now you say the opposite. Could you explain what you mean?

    Thanks!
     

    velisarius

    Senior Member
    British English (Sussex)
    After a preposition (a son of who whom), we must use "whom". If we don't like "whom", we avoid it by rephrasing.

    1 That woman whose son we saw lives next door./That woman, one of whose sons we saw, lives next door.
     

    loviii

    Senior Member
    Russian
    After a preposition (a son of who whom), we must use "whom".
    Could you tell me whether the next sentences are correct:
    Mary, a car of whom we saw, lives next door. (i.e. she has several cars)
    Mary, the car of whom we saw, lives next door. (i.e. she has one car)

    Thanks!
     

    Hildy1

    Senior Member
    English - US and Canada
    Could you tell me whether the next sentences are correct:
    Mary, a car of whom we saw, lives next door. (i.e. she has several cars)
    Mary, the car of whom we saw, lives next door. (i.e. she has one car)
    These sentences are grammatical, but they are unidiomatic and unnatural. I can't imagine anyone saying them.
     

    PaulQ

    Senior Member
    UK
    English - England
    But in some time that man reads everywhere that "whom" is old-fashioned and we should always use "who" instead.
    Who is "this man"? I need to speak to him. Whoever he is, he has not read enough. "Whom" is still used after prepositions.
     

    loviii

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Who is "this man"? I need to speak to him.
    As you understood I'd written about myself. By "that man" I meant that I think, at least once, almost every student has come across to the situation of reading that "whom" is old-fashioned.
    Whoever he is, he has not read enough. "Whom" is still used after prepositions.
    The whole thing is there isn't a rule on which I need to use "who" instead of "whom" in order to not be old-fashioned and a rule when I still need to use "whom". This causes a little stress during the creating of a new thread about "who/whom" pronouns.
     
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