a voz passiva

< Previous | Next >

FloMar

Senior Member
English - England
Eu vi num site que a voz passiva desta frase: Lamentei que não entendesse minha situação é Lamentei que não tivesse entendido a situação.Fico confusa porque não vejo o verbo ser nesta frase. Não seria algo como: lamentei que a situação não fosse entendida?Penso que tivesse entendido é a frase em discurso indireto.
 
  • Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Não ter/tivesse entendido não é voz passiva, temos um sujeito atuante aí: ele/a não entendeu.
    Lamentei que a situação não tivesse sido entendida seria a passiva.
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    How would I differentiate between the imperfect subjunctive (entendesse) and the past perfect subjunctive(tivesse entendido) in the passive?
     

    Vanda

    Moderesa de Beagá
    Português/ Brasil
    Let me see:
    Pretérito perfeito: Só ocorre na forma composta./ only in compound form
    • Uma ação passada em relação à outra também no passado: Espero que você tenha encontrado felicidade em seu novo colégio.
    (action in the past in relation to another one also in the past).
    • Uma ação que poderia ter acontecido no passado: Acredito que ela tenha observado a planta da nova casa.
    (action that could have happened in the past)

    Pretérito imperfeito: • Um fato que exprime condição e está associado com o futuro do pretérito do indicativo: Se você tivesse dinheiro, compraria uma loja.
    Pretérito mais-que-perfeito: Só ocorre na forma composta./ only in compound form
    • Uma ação passada ocorrida em relação à outra também no passado: Se você estivesse de casaco, poderíamos ter ficado até mais tarde.
    (past action in relation to another one in the past)
    • Uma ação que poderia ter ocorrido: Se ele não fosse tão severo, gostaríamos de ter feito uma festa surpresa.
    (action that might have happened)
    Os tempos do subjuntivo - Mundo Educação
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Could someone clarify that my initial suggestion of fosse entendido is correct rather than tivesse sido entendido for the passive rendition of: Lamentei que não entendesse minha situação
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Just to clarify, the sentence above translates as I'm regret that my situation had not been understood or was not understood? Could someone provide me with both tenses in Portuguese?
     

    mglenadel

    Senior Member
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Just to clarify, the sentence above translates as I'm regret that my situation had not been understood or was not understood? Could someone provide me with both tenses in Portuguese?
    It’s more “I regret that [you] didn’t understand the situation”.

    As far as I can tell, the original assertion that the construction was passive is plainly wrong. A true passive would have been “Lamentei que a minha situação não tivesse sido entendida.”
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Thank you, but how would I then say: it's regrettable that my situation hadn't been understood (or something similar) or is the distinction not made between hadn't been understood and was not understod
     

    guihenning

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Thank you, but how would I then say: it's regrettable that my situation hadn't been understood (or something similar) or is the distinction not made between hadn't been understood and was not understod
    As said above: Lamento que a minha situação não tivesse sido entendida (had been)

    I think the best way to translate “was not understood” is “lamento que a minha situação não tenha sido entendida”. It is not litteral, cause the Portuguese sentence isn’t in pretérito perfeito, but it’s how it is supposed to be said.
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Ouvi alguém dizendo ' quando a minha irmã foi fotografada por seus pais...'. Não deveria ser pelos seus pais?
     

    Carfer

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Em Portugal seria realmente a forma mais comum, se bem que a primeira não esteja errada. Aliás, mais comum ainda seria 'pelos nossos pais', uma vez que são irmãos. Atenção, porém, à ambiguidade de 'seus'. 'Seus' da irmã, ou 'seus' do interlocutor? Em qualquer dos casos, 'seus' é muito comum em Portugal.
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    In the sentence As luzes do palco...... acesas, can we use foram (for one time - naquele momento), eram or estavam? The second option sounds correct to me if the passive is only used with the verb ser, but the last option seems correct because wouldn't we use the verb estar for temporary situations? If the last option is correct, why would we say: os trablaho são sempre entregues com atraso (I saw this in a grammar book) and not o trabalho está sempre entregue com atraso?
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    In the sentence As luzes do palco...... acesas, can we use foram (for one time - naquele momento), eram or estavam?
    'Foram' or 'eram'. The second option (eram) won't sound quite right unless you add something to the sentence like an agent or some adverbial phrase.
    As luzes do palco foram acesas.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas por Ciclano.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas todo dia.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam.​

    The third option (estavam) is wrong to the extent that what you have in mind is a passive voice clause. In other words, 'as luzes do palco estavam acesas' is grammatically correct but no passive voice.
     
    Last edited:

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Hi Machadinho
    That's helpful, especially the sentence with estavam. How would you translate the first two sentences?
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    In a literal vein I would translate them both as:

    Stage lights were turned on.​

    The distinction between foram acesas and eram acesas in the passive voice, though, or at least in how we're using them here, is one of aspect, rather than mood. So, in order to highlight the imperfect, or more frequentative, aspect of the latter (eram acesas), I would probably appeal to some adverbial phrase, or even to another structure:
    Perfective:​
    As luzes do palco foram acesas.​
    Stage lights were turned on.​
    Frequentative:​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas.¹​
    a. Stage lights were turned on every night.
    a. Stage lights used to be turned on every night.​
    But here I guess it's your turn to help me out. :)

    1. This sounds incomplete. See #16 above.
     
    Last edited:

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    In a literal vein I would translate them both as:

    Stage lights were turned on.​

    The distinction between foram acesas and eram acesas in the passive voice, though, or at least in how we're using them here, is one of aspect, rather than mood. So, in order to highlight the imperfect, or more frequentative, aspect of the latter (eram acesas), I would probably appeal to some adverbial phrase, or even to another structure:
    Perfect:​
    As luzes do palco foram acesas.​
    Stage lights were turned on.​
    Frequentative:​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas.¹​
    a. Stage lights were turned on every night.
    a. Stage lights used to be turned on every night.​
    But here I guess it's your turn to help me out. :)

    1. This sounds incomplete. See #16 above.
    Could we say something like: de repente as luzes foram acesas?What about: Quando cheguei as luzes do palco já eram acesas e a Maria fazia o ensaio ( I would translate this as were already on because of the já, but can't improve on your translation above, as were turned on every night rightly communicates a repeated action. The same for used to be/ were often etc.
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    'Foram' or 'eram'. The second option (eram) won't sound quite right unless you add something to the sentence like an agent or some adverbial phrase.
    As luzes do palco foram acesas.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas por Ciclano.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas todo dia.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam.​

    The third option (estavam) is wrong to the extent that what you have in mind is a passive voice clause. In other words, 'as luzes do palco estavam acesas' is grammatically correct but no passive voice.
    Could I check that the meanings would be:
    The stage lights were turned / switched on
    The stage lights were (often) turned on by Ciclano/ used to be turned on by X
    ........ were often/used to be turned on every day
    ... were on (meaning had been on for some time) when the corredor lights went out, but I would say quando as luzes do corredor se apagaram. Is that also possible?
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Could we say something like: de repente as luzes foram acesas? :tick:
    Yep. Not much changes in terms of aspect, though. This is still seen as a single, past action.

    What about: Quando cheguei as luzes do palco já eram estavam acesas e a Maria fazia o ensaio
    Nope, you can't. Also, you will need a pluperfect verb form to get the passive voice right:

    Quando cheguei as luzes do palco já tinham sido acesas, e a Maria fazia o ensaio.​
     
    Last edited:

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Could I check that the meanings would be:
    The stage lights were turned / switched on :tick:
    The stage lights were (often) turned on by Ciclano/ used to be turned on by X :tick:
    ........ were often/used to be turned on every day :tick:
    ... were on (meaning had been on for some time :cross: ) when the corredor lights went out.:cross:
    No, it doesn't mean that the stage lights had been on for some time. It means that (often) they were turned on (by someone) when the other lights were turned off. (Also, not "went out," but "were switched off." The phrase 'se apagavam' or 'apagavam-se' is passive voice too.)

    [...] but I would say quando as luzes do corredor se apagaram. :cross: Is that also possible?
    No, it's not. You can't do that due to an aspect mismatch between the clauses. In order to use 'apagaram', you need to adjust the other clause accordingly. Compare:

    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam. (freq. + freq.)​
    As luzes do palco foram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagaram. (perfective + perfective)​
     
    Last edited:

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Yep. Not much changes in terms of aspect, though. This is still seen as a single, past action.


    Nope, you can't. Also, you will need a pluperfect verb form to get the passive voice right:

    Quando cheguei as luzes do palco já tinham sido acesas, e a Maria fazia o ensaio.​
    Entendi. Obrigada.
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    No, it doesn't mean that the stage lights had been on for some time. It means that (often) they were turned on (by someone) when the other lights were turned off. (Also, not "went out," but "were switched off." The phrase 'se apagavam' or 'apagavam-se' is passive voice too.)

    No, it's not. You can't do that due to an aspect mismatch between the clauses. In order to use 'apagaram', you need to adjust the other clause accordingly. Compare:

    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam. (freq. + freq.)​
    As luzes do palco foram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagaram. (perfective + perfective)​
    Em relação ao uso do imperfeito, não é possível dizer quando cheguei em casa a Maria estava comendo/ a Maria jantava?
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Pode me explicar a diferença em termos do significado do segundo imperfeto em ambas as frases: As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam. (freq. + freq.) quando cheguei em casa a Maria estava comendo/ a Maria jantava?

     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Pois não. :)

    (i) 'apagavam-se' (nesse exemplo) descreve um grande número de acontecimentos semelhantes, completos em si, que ocorreram repetidas vezes em noites diferentes;

    (ii) 'estava comendo' ou 'jantava' (nesse exemplo) descreve um único acontecimento, incompleto, que ocorreu uma única vez, numa noite específica.

    Além do mais, a primeira está na voz passiva (apagavam-se), e a segunda na voz ativa (estava comendo / jantava).

    Observe que o verbo 'apagavam-se' está no tempo verbal chamado de imperfeito mas não tem aspecto imperfeito. Ou seja, nesse exemplo específico, 'apagavam-se' não se traduz por: were being switched off.

    Ficou mais claro agora?
     
    Last edited:

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Entendo. Muito obrigada. É só agora que vejo a sua explicação por eu não estar online durante algumas semanas.

    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam. (freq. + freq.) = The stage lights used to be on whenever the corredor lights used to go out. i.e. a frequent action in the past.
    quando cheguei em casa a Maria estava comendo/ a Maria jantava - when I arrived home Maria was (in the process of) eating i.e. she had started before I arived and was still doing it when I got there
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    As luzes do palco eram estavam acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam. (freq. + freq.) = The stage lights used to be on whenever the corredor lights used to go out. i.e. a frequent action in the past.
    Nope. Let's try this way:
    As luzes do palco estavam acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam.​
    The stage lights were on (active voice) whenever the corredor lights used to go out.​
    As luzes do palco eram acesas quando as luzes do corredor se apagavam.​
    The stage lights were switched on (passive voice) whenever the corredor lights used to go out.​
    quando cheguei em casa a Maria estava comendo/ a Maria jantava - when I arrived home Maria was (in the process of) eating i.e. she had started before I arived and was still doing it when I got there:tick:
     

    FloMar

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Entendi.

    I have a question about estavam acesas and eram acesas. My problem is that we wouldn't tend to make the distinction in English between passive and active here because unless there was some kind of electrical circuit connection between the corredor lights and the stage lights, we would assme that if the lights were on it was because they were switched on by someone. Am I to understand that if the the lights were on / estavam acesas they came on (by themselves) whenever the stage lights went out or were turned off? Or is the emphasis that they were already on (in which case we can infer that they had already been switched on by someone)?
     

    machadinho

    Senior Member
    Português do Brasil
    Am I to understand that if the the lights were on / estavam acesas they came on (by themselves) whenever the stage lights went out or were turned off?
    No, you're not. By using the active or the passive voice you're not committed to either view about how the world is. Talk of a passive voice, as opposed to an active one, is just another way to try to make sense of language structures for the purposes of getting the grammar right, and that's all. A grocery shop billboard says:

    (1) Vendem-se ovos.

    And no one is to draw the conclusion that eggs are selling themselves inside.

    Or is the emphasis that they were already on (in which case we can infer that they had already been switched on by someone)?
    Yes. We can infer so, but not because of what language was used, but because we know how lights work.
     
    Last edited:
    < Previous | Next >
    Top