absent on faces twisted into self-loathing...

chobalsim

Senior Member
Korea, Korean
Pride is a vice when it traffics in accomplishments that have little to do with genuine moral achievement but instead rest on the exercise of power or wealth. Pride is surely a vice, and a sin, when it is absent on faces twisted into self-loathing caricatures of abasement. Humility is virtuous, but humiliation, whether invited or imposed, is vicious.

I can't understand the bold part of the above paragrah.
Pride is a vice when you can't see it on the faces that is distorted like a caricatures of looking down on yourself???
What does it mean? Please help me.
 
  • roxcyn

    Senior Member
    USA
    American English [AmE]
    Pride is a bad habit and sin. When it is missing on faces twisted in self-pity of exaggerated features of humiliation.

    So I think he is saying that pride is not a good thing, and that people that lie and say they have no pride but hate their bad parts about themselves are humiliated (degraded).

    These were some big words so I had to look in the dictionary. Below is from the dictionary. Hopefully it can help you reach your own conclusion or someone else can use it to give their input.

    abasement: A lowering in or deprivation of character or self-esteem:debasement, degradation, humiliation, mortification.See respect, win.vice:

    <<Deleted by Mod: See WR Rule #16.>>

    To represent or imitate in an exaggerated, distorted manner.
     

    cyanista

    законодательница мод
    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    Pride is a sin, but the absence of pride and it being replaced by self-loathing is even a greater sin.
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    Pride is a vice when it traffics in accomplishments that have little to do with genuine moral achievement but instead rest on the exercise of power or wealth.

    Pride is surely a vice, and a sin, when it is absent on faces twisted into self-loathing caricatures of abasement.

    Humility is virtuous, but humiliation, whether invited or imposed, is vicious.

    What a very strange thing to say!
    It's possible that knowing the wider context would help - where is this extract taken from?

    Starting at the end and working forwards:
    abasement = the state of degradation, humiliation; or the process of getting there.
    caricature = an exaggerated portrayal of somebody or something, often grotesque and usually with intent to make a point - or more likely in this case, a ludicrous misrepresentation of something.

    Leaning on the general tone given by the context, a caricature of abasement is a deliberate and dishonest presentation of onself as being extremely humble and lowly, powerless, degraded and humiliated.

    Is the self-loathing genuine? From the context, I suspect not.

    So here we have people who for their own motivation are deliberately seeking to deceive the onlooker into believing that they are selfless, powerless, the defeated, degraded, humiliated underdogs.

    Now, why should it be a vice and a sin not to include pride with this rather bizarre mixture? Is it because the writer is suggesting that these people are in fact proud of their ability to present themselves in this way, and the absence of apparent pride is yet another deceit?

    Well, that's as far as I can take it:)

    I would really like to know where this came from, and what purpose was behind the analysis.
     

    chobalsim

    Senior Member
    Korea, Korean
    Thank you all! From cyanista's short sentence to roxcyn's translation with some explanation and to panjandrum's long analysis, they were very helpful for me. Especially panjandrum's analysis about caricature-part was great to read the writer's attitude.

    The writer's style is sometimes very difficult for me to understand. I'm not that good at those twisted sentences. Anyway, how something can be a vice because it is absent when it has to exist. :(

    FYI, the writer sees pride as a virtue and a vice as well--yes, everything has good parts and bad ones--and the paragraph is about vicious part of pride.

    Anyway, thank you again. :)
     

    mateitop

    Senior Member
    UK, English
    I'm still undecided.

    I think the author is proposing that:-

    (i) Pride, when wrongly rooted in discourses of power and authority (as opposed to 'true' virtues and moral achievements), is a flaw.

    (ii) The phrase in question is a look at the other side of the coin: that the complete absence of pride is, even more so, a sin - i.e. in the author's example, these pride-less guys could do with some 'TLC' and self-appreciation, because they are looking shabby and their self-deprecation (perhaps arising from equally misguided 'modesty') is excessive, and thus not to be favoured either.

    He goes on to say humility is virtuous (i.e. respectable and favourable) but humiliation 'whether invited or imposed' (i.e. invited by the humiliated - those who are self-deprecating) or imposed by the humiliator, is not.
    Pride vs. self-deprecation, humility vs. humiliation.

    Please tell me if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree of self-justification.
     

    chobalsim

    Senior Member
    Korea, Korean
    Thanks to your help incluing your answer, now I can understand what the writer is trying to say. :)
    But I can hardly understand why he wrote that way. If too-much self-depreciation with no-pride is bad I would say self-depreciation is a vice rather than to say pride is a vice.
    Am I baking up the wrong tree? :)
     

    maxiogee

    Banned
    English
    chobalsim said:
    Am I baking up the wrong tree? :)
    I don't know what size of an oven you have, so I cannot comment on the tree you might be baking! :D
    You 'could' be barking up the wrong tree.

    My only comment on the sentence is how ugly it is. The author is trying to comment on how something is a sin "when it is absent" - that's a very strange concept.
     

    Birta

    New Member
    Icelandic, Iceland
    "Pride is surely a vice, and a sin, when it is absent on faces twisted into self-loathing caricatures of abasement".

    Well it doesn´t exactly say that pride is absent in these people, only that it is absent from their faces... that is that they are dishonest about it. They take great pride in themselves but then go overboard in terms of portraying themselves as humble... to the point that they are taking pride in being publicly humiliated. He/she, the writer, might be refering to people who like to play victims, and then take pride in their roles as martyrs. In which case, would also explain the rest of the quote.
     

    Joelline

    Senior Member
    American English
    chobalsim said:
    Pride is a vice when it traffics in accomplishments that have little to do with genuine moral achievement but instead rest on the exercise of power or wealth. Pride is surely a vice, and a sin, when it is absent on faces twisted into self-loathing caricatures of abasement. Humility is virtuous, but humiliation, whether invited or imposed, is vicious.
    Chobalism,

    Could you type out the 2 or 3 sentences that come right before this quotation.

    Do the sentences that come right before this part speak about the virtue of pride (rooted in genuine moral achievement)?

    I'm asking because it seems to be that this writer is saying that "Pride is surely a vice and a sin when IT (the look of virtuous pride based on moral achievement) is absent (BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN REPLACED BY) faces twisted into self-loathing caricatures of absement."
     
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